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[07:50] < vmlemon_> Hi

[08:13] *** vmlemon_ is surprised by how convoluted the PyGame installation process was on Mac OS X 10.5.6, prior to running the Kamaelia examples

[08:14] < vmlemon_> So much for "everything's included in the base installation"

[08:22] < vmlemon_> Still, at least the PyGame examples seem to work

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[09:54] < dsuch> hmm.. does importing Kamealia in an Apache licensed code makes it GPL/LGPL/MPL licensed?

[10:40] < vmlemon_> Not sure

[10:41] < vmlemon_> It presumably isn't a derivative work, though

[10:41] < vmlemon_> Although software licensing is a complex area

[11:00] < dsuch> yea

[11:00] < dsuch> Life would be much easier if all libraries and frameworks were licensed under BSD/Apache or Python :-)

[11:01] < dsuch> vmlemon_: MS- is Kamaelia's author I take it?

[11:01] < vmlemon_> Of course, the Apache License 2.0 is incompatible with the GPLv2

[11:01] < vmlemon_> Yes

[11:01] < vmlemon_> Although you can blame the FSF for that idiocy

[11:02] < dsuch> heh

[11:02] < vmlemon_> (They decided that they wanted to put themselves into a licensing ghetto)...

[11:02] < dsuch> Personally I'd like where frameworks use BSD & friends and end-user applications use GPL, makes sense to me.

[11:02] < vmlemon_> Or something like that

[11:03] < dsuch> hm, *I like when, I mean

[11:03] < vmlemon_> Yeah

[11:03] < vmlemon_> Linking against frameworks and libraries under proprietary licenses is just as thorny

[11:03] < dsuch> right

[11:03] *** vmlemon_ thinks that GPLing libraries is a stupid idea

[11:04] < dsuch> is there any major one actually doing it?

[11:04] < vmlemon_> Some of the FFMPEG libraries were GPLed, if I remember correctly

[11:05] < dsuch> but you're right, when there's a new GPL-licensed annnounced on PyPI I usually don't even bother taking look at it

[11:05] < vmlemon_> (Although there was a compile-time function to remove that code, so that the resulting binaries are LGPL'd)

[11:05] < vmlemon_> Not sure if the GNU LibC is GPL'd or LGPL'd, for what it's worth

[11:06] < vmlemon_> Heh, the FSF were endorsing GPLing libraries a while ago, for some weird reason

[11:06] < dsuch> okay, will it wait for MS-, hope he'll clarify it :)

[11:07] < dsuch> in the hope of taking over the whole world probably

[11:07] < vmlemon_> Qt comes to mind as a major library that was GPLed

[11:07] < vmlemon_> Yeah...

[11:07] < dsuch> but err.. the channel's publicly logged right?

[11:08] < vmlemon_> Although Nokia came to their senses, after acquiring TrollTech and LGPL'd it

[11:08] < vmlemon_> Yeah

[11:08] < vmlemon_> When kamlogbot's functional, anyway

[11:08] < dsuch> I don't know you, we've never met

[11:08] < dsuch> I love GPL!

[11:09] < dsuch> vmlemon_: (that's the part where you start to chuckle..)

[11:09] < vmlemon_> Folks are encouraged to post in the channel, and check the answer later

[11:10] < vmlemon_> At least if they're not willing to wait in the channel

[11:11] < dsuch> I am, going through MiniAxom in that time.

[11:11] < vmlemon_> Aah, col

[11:11] < vmlemon_> *cool

[11:11] < vmlemon_> Stupid typos

[11:12] < dsuch> he

[11:12] < dsuch> hm, just noticed it's Axon not Axom

[11:13] < vmlemon_> Heh, Microsoft confusingly started a project named "Axum", a while ago, with vaguely similar goals

[11:13] < dsuch> I think there was a Twisted Axom years ago

[11:13] < vmlemon_> They seem to enjoy pinching names and mangling them

[11:14] < vmlemon_> Unless it was purely coincidental...

[11:14] < dsuch> Does Ax have any special meaning?

[11:14] < dsuch> Other than an axe? :)

[11:15] < vmlemon_> If you're curious, the Mac OS X Dictionary application says, "the long threadlike part of a nerve cell along which impulses are conducted from the cell body to other cells."

[11:15] < vmlemon_> (for "Axon")

[11:15] < vmlemon_> Not sure if that's the inspiration of the name, though

[11:16] < dsuch> sure, I actually knew that, so it may be that 'ax' is a common root for each of those projects

[11:16] < vmlemon_> Aah

[11:17] < dsuch> Although this Latin dictionary doesn't seem to be in agreement http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup.pl?stem=ax&ending=

[11:17] < vmlemon_> Might have been related to the concept of using IPC to link components together

[11:17] < dsuch> yea

[11:18] < dsuch> what are we doing anyway, going back to the tutorial! :)

[11:19] < vmlemon_> "Axon: It's what's inside the cat's brain" was probably not one of the initial slogans considered ;)

[11:21] *** vmlemon_ notes that we had "Tools for Doing Cool Stuff", or something like that, initially...

[11:21] < dsuch> that was the project's name?

[11:22] < vmlemon_> Nah

[11:22] < vmlemon_> That was just an initial slogan, prior to the redesign of the website

[11:23] < dsuch> ah

[11:24] < dsuch> Do you know that http://www.kamaelia.org/About links to two placeholder pages?

[11:24] < vmlemon_> Yeah

[11:25] < vmlemon_> There's still some Lipsum text on the homepage, too

[11:25] *** vmlemon_ isn't in charge of maintaining the Website

[11:25] < dsuch> kind of makes me feel like Alice in the Wonderland, combined with the logo, that is

[11:26] < vmlemon_> Although there is a tea-related connection, that was discovered after the fact, as the story went, if I remember correctly

[11:27] < dsuch> It seems like you tried really, *really* hard to get rid of any pompous style during making it

[11:27] < dsuch> which is fine with me

[11:28] *** vmlemon_ wonders why the KDE4 for Mac OS X initial version insists on making me download an older version of Qt4, when I already had a perfectly good later version installed...

[11:29] < dsuch> oh, can't help you with that, I'm a happy Ubuntu & Gnome user

[11:29] < vmlemon_> Aah

[11:29] < dsuch> though of course I have half of the KDE dependencies installed anyway

[11:30] *** vmlemon_ was using KDE4 on Fedora previously, before deciding to install a modified copy of Mac OS X on a spare HDD

[11:31] < dsuch> heh, I didn't even know you could install a Mac OS separately, without buying hardware from Apple

[11:31] < dsuch> which I think proves I really don't know how to help you :)

[11:32] < vmlemon_> Conveniently, the latest versions are compiled for x86, but just ship with a limited set of drivers, and insist on being installed to a disk with a GPT label, instead of a traditional x86 MBR

[11:33] < vmlemon_> Although there are workarounds for that, which were aided by the fact that a significant amount of the core OS is Open Source...

[11:35] < dsuch> the only thing I really like in Mac OS is that application for drawing simple diagrams which name I always forget..

[11:35] < dsuch> hm..

[11:35] < vmlemon_> OmniGraffle, or whatever it was called?

[11:35] < dsuch> ah, OmniGraffle, right

[11:35] < vmlemon_> Although I've never used that

[11:36] *** vmlemon_ came into it with a UNIX/Linux user's mindset, which helped somewhat

[11:36] < dsuch> that was actually the only reason I wanted to install Mac OS in VirtualBox, until I learnt it would be illegal

[11:36] < vmlemon_> Of course, a lot of people who've never used it expect it to work like like Windows

[11:36] < vmlemon_> *work like

[11:37] < dsuch> better approach would be to expect everything work just like Ubuntu :)

[11:37] < dsuch> vmlemon_: but we're really drifting away from MiniAxon now :)

[11:38] *** vmlemon_ assumes that the chances of being sued are minimal, unless you're selling it preinstalled on hardware

[11:38] < vmlemon_> ;)

[11:38] < vmlemon_> Good point...

[11:39] < dsuch> getting back to it, chat later vmlemon_ !

[11:39] < dsuch> nice talking to you

[11:39] < vmlemon_> No problem

[13:05] < MS-> dsuch: "does importing Kamealia in an Apache licensed code makes it GPL/LGPL/MPL"

[13:05] < MS-> Answer is no - the minimal restriction is LGPL. Usage of the library does not change the license of your code.

[13:07] < MS-> (reading back from scrollback btw)

[13:07] < MS-> name "axon" is meant to allude to real world axons in nerves. ie to emphasise the idea is communications.

[13:09] < MS-> "http://www.kamaelia.org/Licensing" gives a longer summary, but boils down to "If you change code we give you, and you distribute that, then those changes must be lgpl". and "your code is yours"

[13:10] < dsuch> I see, thanks MS-

[13:10] < dsuch> I was a bit confused when I saw it was triple-licensed

[13:12] < MS-> It's the same license as Mozilla for what it's worth

[13:12] < MS-> The idea is to try and keep as many people happy as possible.

[13:13] < MS-> I'd prefer a BSD-like license personally, but I didn't have as much of a choice as I'd like

[13:13] < MS-> Though it's possible we may move to something like apache at some point.

[13:14] < MS-> The only foible with the LGPL is that you can argue that inheritance triggers the LGPL, but with python, that inheritance is at runtime.

[13:14] < MS-> If you have an alternate possible thing to import the name from

[13:14] < MS-> ... like a mini-axon ... then it clarifies that it's NOT triggered

[13:15] < MS-> So as well as being a tutorial, the mini-axon thing also helps people in a concrete way - making sure your code stays yours :)

[13:22] < dsuch> um, sorry, I'm back

[13:22] < dsuch> ok, thanks for clarifying it, those licenses are always confusing to me

[13:23] < dsuch> especially because I know they've been created hundreds of years ago with C programs in mind

[13:23] < Lawouach> afternoon folks

[13:23] < dsuch> hello

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[13:57] < MS-> dsuch: np.

[14:06] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[14:34] < vmlemon_> Hi Lawouach

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[19:27] < vmlemon_> Hmm, http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/bbc_to_kill_open_source_tv.php

[19:27] *** vmlemon_ can't see that happening any time soon

[19:28] < vmlemon_> Given that they'd render a ton of STBs obsolete

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