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[09:21] < Lawouach_> afternoon

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[10:17] < MS-> Afternoon

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[11:13] < vmlemon_> Hi

[11:18] < MS-> hiya

[11:19] < MS-> vmlemon_: Let's put it this way, that "diversity" list was the single most hostile place I've been in

[11:20] < MS-> Lots of sane people, and lots of people who'd clearly experienced prejudice of some kind for some reason (which I think many have actually)

[11:20] < MS-> But for some reason saw people saying things or worse not saying things as heinous crimes

[11:21] < MS-> The end point for me was someone deciding to continue that tone by saying "being nice doesn't work"

[11:21] < MS-> which I find counter intuitive

[11:21] < MS-> (he says being nice about it :) )

[11:21] < vmlemon_> You'd think that they'd at least try and keep it congenial, given the topic at hand

[11:23] < MS-> Indeed.

[11:23] < MS-> One guy was trying to apologise for being blind about something he'd said

[11:23] < MS-> and in the process said something else which upset people

[11:23] < MS-> You know, like the monty python stoning scene from life of brian

[11:23] < vmlemon_> If I was in a minority (for want of a better word), I'd probably want to run a mile from that list

[11:23] < MS-> Everyone's in some minority or another

[11:23] < vmlemon_> I hate to think about the Accessibility mailing lists, of some projects, if the Python equivalent is *that* bad

[11:23] < vmlemon_> True...

[11:24] < MS-> I grew up in a poor family and am now only in a better position because I learnt to program and put myself through uni, in order to get a bit of paper in order to get a better job to get to where I am

[11:25] < MS-> That means I'm in a minority much like some others

[11:25] < MS-> But I'm white and male, therefore in the majority group in python

[11:25] < MS-> But I have a beard so I get profiled at airports

[11:25] < vmlemon_> That's the snag - experience means next to nothing, and it's hard on people who haven't been to university yet, and have never been employed

[11:25] < MS-> :)

[11:25] < vmlemon_> Ugh

[11:26] < MS-> (a beard is something you can run a control on :) )

[11:26] < vmlemon_> It doesn't help that the economy's in the crapper, and everyone + cat and dog are being shipped off to Bangalore, either

[11:27] < MS-> s/bangalore/where-ever-is-cheapest-today/

[11:27] < vmlemon_> Aye

[11:28] < vmlemon_> I'm not exactly part of a wealthy "family" (to use the term loosely, given by how fragmented and disjointed mine is), either

[11:29] *** MS- nods

[11:29] < MS-> I wanted to raise that sort of issue on the list actually

[11:29] < vmlemon_> It's more of a composite of at least 3 or 4

[11:30] < MS-> but realised I was afraid to speak there so decided to go elsewhere

[11:30] < MS-> For example costs of things like books etc are huge

[11:30] < MS-> "oh just buy..."

[11:30] < vmlemon_> Makes sense. Just when you think someone (in the collective sense) is listening and being accepting, they drop a bomb and plug their ears

[11:31] < MS-> Whereas 25 years ago computer books were written for and accessible by kids

[11:31] < MS-> and in pocket money price range

[11:31] < MS-> Online resources are around now, but it's just not the same

[11:31] < vmlemon_> Of course, it's difficult to comprehend something as complex as a modern computer system now, along with all the proprietary cruft and baggage

[11:32] < vmlemon_> Hell, there aren't even as many people who understand x86 Assembler, so it seems, these days

[11:32] < MS-> That's laziness on behalf of the computing industry, IMO

[11:32] < MS-> I never did x86 assembler

[11:32] < MS-> 6502 & 68000 yes, but not x86 :)

[11:33] < MS-> I could read Z80 :)

[11:33] < vmlemon_> It's a case of "I don't understand it, I'll pile a ton of cack on top, and give it a fancy name"

[11:33] < vmlemon_> *so I'll

[11:33] < vmlemon_> (Sort-of like Java) ;)

[11:34] < vmlemon_> Nothing personal against the people who built and designed Java mind you, but that seems to have been the prevailing mindset

[11:37] < MS-> Dunno. In other news, this amuses:

[11:37] < MS-> http://www.postmodernbarney.com/2009/04/uncomfortable-plot-summaries/

[11:37] *** vmlemon_ looks

[11:39] < vmlemon_> Haha

[11:39] < vmlemon_> So true, too

[11:39] < vmlemon_> I haven't seen most of the stuff mentioned there, mind you, though

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[16:53] < vmlemon_> Hi

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[17:13] < MS-> evening

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