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[08:40] < MS-> Morning

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[09:38] < Lawouach_> hi MS-

[09:38] < MS-> hiya

[09:47] < Lawouach_> now that you're back, where are things heading with Axon? Will more work happen on the Axon refactoring?

[09:48] < MS-> Yes, there will

[09:48] < MS-> I figured that I wanted to get contributions merged and streamlined before pushing on with those, but I'm pretty happy with the way those changes are going

[09:49] < MS-> Simon Wittber's also been in touch off list and suggested working closer between Axon & Fiber which strikes me as a good idea.

[09:49] < Lawouach_> Fiber?

[09:49] < Lawouach_> never heard of it

[09:49] < MS-> Fibra rather

[09:49] < Lawouach_> ah right

[09:49] < Lawouach_> rings a bell

[09:50] < MS-> The source of the benchmarks/motivation for doing the core of Axon :)

[09:51] < Lawouach_> :)

[09:52] < Lawouach_> I'm trying to find a way of using Kamaelia at work, since we're heavily centered around XMPP, I might use my libs to write test beds

[09:52] < Lawouach_> But I'm being careful at the same time because I will have to motivate my choices

[09:52] < Lawouach_> :)

[09:59] *** MS- nods

[09:59] < MS-> I'm going to be shifting over to a new project here at work in about 2-3 weeks as well, and will hopefully be able to use Kamaelia in that

[09:59] < Lawouach_> I've found that one of the most complicated aspect of integrating Kamaelia was its... er... difference

[09:59] *** MS- nods

[10:00] < Lawouach_> It doesn't have an OOP API for instance

[10:00] < MS-> In a way that's the idea behind the Handle aspect - since it should allow people to build OOP APIs to components

[10:00] < Lawouach_> and sometimes it's hard to explain why there is so much verbosity in complex graphlines

[10:00] < Lawouach_> yeap

[10:00] < Lawouach_> and I should really add Handle support to headtsock

[10:01] < Lawouach_> my boss usually cares more about readability and maintenability than pure awesomeness

[10:01] < Lawouach_> :p

[10:02] *** MS- nods

[10:03] < MS-> In a way though those are both driving aspects of kamaelia - as a reaction against the less readable approach you get with something thats more reactor based

[10:04] < MS-> But Gloria's talk was interesting for emphasising that there is a difference about K which people find difficult initially to grasp

[10:04] < MS-> more so if they're experienced devs, which tracks

[10:04] < MS-> That ties into the other plans I've got - to split the website up much better

[10:05] < MS-> split out Axon, Kamaelia & Apps in a much cleaner way

[10:05] < Lawouach_> that sounds sensible to me

[10:05] < MS-> To enable also having a better set of docs for each part

[10:06] < MS-> "this is how you build a miniaxon" -- already clear

[10:06] < MS-> "this is how you build components" -- could be better

[10:06] < MS-> "this is how you build applications" -- not clear enough by far

[10:06] < Lawouach_> and afterall, allow people to Axon on its own outside of Kamaelia. It's already possible but I doubt anyone makes the distinction.

[10:06] < MS-> Yep. Jesse picked up on that, which I found useful

[10:06] < MS-> Also, I want to push into Axon a collection of base components that seem to be useful in lots of code

[10:07] < MS-> ie which form a DSL for kamaelia systems - with the obvious ones being Pipeline & Graphline

[10:08] < Lawouach_> right

[10:10] < MS-> It also makes Axon more useful out of the box.

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[10:51] < Lawouach_> hmm Kamaelia isn't "pip+virtualenv" friendly when trying to install as a regular user

[10:52] < Lawouach_> It tries to write to /usr/local anyway

[11:53] < MS-> What error do you get?

[11:54] < MS-> My guess is pip+virtualenv+setuptools hate it when you have data files

[11:54] < Lawouach_> good guess

[11:54] < Lawouach_> it isn't a blocker for me anyhow

[11:57] < MS-> I've been thinking about these things btw.

[11:57] < MS-> Data files are useful if you use the "full distribution"

[11:57] < MS-> however if someone is doing something like

[11:57] < MS-> easy_install Kamaelia

[11:57] < MS-> then they're really "just" interested in downloading the library elements

[11:58] < MS-> ie the contents of Axon/ and Kamaelia/

[11:58] < MS-> So I'm likely to change the packaging a small variety of packages

[11:58] < MS-> ones with everything that's there at present

[11:58] < MS-> and ones which setuptools/easy_install/etc are happy with

[11:59] < Lawouach_> Sounds good to me

[11:59] < Lawouach_> and would reduce dramatically the size of the packages

[11:59] < Lawouach_> 'cos right now it's rather chubby

[12:00] < MS-> It's that sort of thing I'm thinking of

[12:00] *** Lawouach_ replaces Backplanes with Fanout components

[12:00] < Lawouach_> tedious work :p

[12:01] < MS-> Could be worse :)

[12:04] < Lawouach_> true

[14:25] < MS-> back later

[14:26] < MS-> cya

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[15:53] < vmlemon_> Hi

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[16:54] < wyleu> I have a confession to make...

[17:00] < vmlemon_> Eh?

[17:00] < vmlemon_> That was a short confession ;)

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[18:18] < MS-> evening

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[22:36] < SamHasler> I didn't know the Kamaelia cat had made an appearance on dilbert http://www.babelgum.com/browser.php#play|SEARCH,queryString:dilbert,order:TOP_RATED|18,3014818