[00:39] *** Uraeus has joined #kamaelia

[00:42] *** Uraeus has joined #kamaelia

[09:24] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[12:18] *** vmlemon_1 has joined #kamaelia

[12:19] < vmlemon_1> Hi

[12:43] < Davbo> Hey vmlemon_1

[12:55] < vmlemon_1> Heh, it only took 2 years on-and-off, although I finally threw a semi-working release of an open source project that I've been working on occasionally over the wall - where "semi-working" means "appears to boot under VMware Player, with some quirks that I haven't figured out yet, but has no real functionality right now"...

[13:21] *** elvum wonders if anyone's seen ms

[13:27] < Davbo> heh, I asked the same question a couple of days ago

[13:27] < Davbo> He did tweet that he was going offline for a while

[13:28] < Davbo> what is it vmlemon_1 ?

[13:34] < vmlemon_1> It was some experimental OS project that I was assembling, a while ago

[13:36] < vmlemon_1> And I just broke SVN...

[13:42] *** vmlemon_1 isn't so sure that "svn: Can't open '.svn/tmp/tempfile.tmp': No such file or directory" is supposed to happen when trying to check stuff out

[13:50] < elvum> Davbo: :-) I was expecting him to return to civilisation yesterday, but I guess he hasn't been online yet

[14:22] < vmlemon_1> Hasn't he Tweeted recently?

[14:25] < vmlemon_1> Hurrah, and I finally discovered the "svn cleanup" command

[14:25] < vmlemon_1> (Only after blowing out the offending directory manually, of course)

[14:31] < elvum> heh

[14:31] < elvum> ah well, I'm sure he'll reappear eventually

[14:34] < Davbo> I'm sure he will

[15:52] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[16:32] *** Uraeus has joined #kamaelia

[17:09] *** vmlemon_2 has joined #kamaelia

[17:42] < Davbo> so many of the questions in #django are really Python questions non-specific to django

[17:43] < vmlemon_2> Heh, what a surprise

[17:43] < Davbo> indeed

[17:43] *** vmlemon_2 wonders how many people spend their time asking Django questions in #python

[17:46] < Davbo> I guess it isn't as bad as Rails, I doubt many people at all came to that with much prior Ruby experience

[17:47] < Davbo> Although for Rails that wouldn't matter as much really (from what i've used of it)

[17:47] < vmlemon_2> To them, Rails probably *is* Ruby ;)

[17:47] < Davbo> t'is a shame realy

[17:47] < vmlemon_2> There's always Zope... *barf*

[17:47] < Davbo> Hah :)

[17:48] < vmlemon_2> Last time I used that, it seemed to be stuck in it's own little world, and wouldn't interoperate with anything else very well, never mind that I could never figure out how to theme it

[17:49] < vmlemon_2> It sort-of "integrated" with Apache using FastCGI and a load of mod_rewrite hacks, although it had so many quirks and bugs, that I gave up on it

[17:49] < vmlemon_2> It doesn't help that it insisted on shoving everything in an opaque database, either

[17:51] < Davbo> There's something suspicious about the Zope community

[17:52] < vmlemon_2> "Want to manipulate your content/data through the file system? Screw you! Use WebDAV!" comes to mind

[17:52] < Davbo> they've essentially secured their jobs by making it all so confusing and voodoo

[17:52] < vmlemon_2> Heh

[17:53] < vmlemon_2> Of course, you have to use *their* FTP server, and *their* WebDAV server, even if you've already got your own, perfectly useful ones configured

[17:54] < vmlemon_2> Even Zope doesn't know what it's supposed to be... ;)

[17:54] < vmlemon_2> *Zope itself

[17:55] < vmlemon_2> Half-baked file storage system? Half-baked CMS with a weird proprietary templating system? An application framework? An obnoxious blackhole?

[17:57] < vmlemon_2> It even makes Moomla, erm Mambo, erm Joomla look good, and I'm not a fan of that clustermess

[17:58] < Davbo> heh looks like they have Plone / Zope training days, says it all really

[17:59] < vmlemon_2> They couldn't be SharePoint in functionality, so they became SharePoint in mentality ;0

[17:59] < vmlemon_2> ;)

[18:00] < vmlemon_2> Next up - Titanic rescuing lessons? ;)

[18:00] < Davbo> hehe

[18:01] *** vmlemon_2 pets Drupal

[18:03] < vmlemon_2> (At least it's somewhat coherent, and isn't actively trying to wreck my data in a silent show of hostility and crap design - from what I can tell)

[18:04] *** vmlemon_2 wonders who'd be the worthiest of the "Most closed open-source product" award ;)

[18:06] < Davbo> The slides Gloria has posted to the Kamaelia ML crashes whatever it is that GNOME is trying to open it with

[18:06] < Davbo> odd.

[18:06] < vmlemon_2> Ouch

[18:06] *** Davbo downloads open office

[18:07] < Davbo> At least I think .odp is an OO file extension..

[18:08] < vmlemon_2> Mmm, Zope running under IronPython on Mono would be deliciously evil ;)

[18:08] < Davbo> hehe

[18:08] < vmlemon_2> Or at least the worst of both worlds

[18:08] < Davbo> go one step further with Plone

[18:08] < vmlemon_2> Hhe

[18:08] < vmlemon_2> *Heh

[18:09] < vmlemon_2> Does Mono work on Windows right now?

[18:10] < vmlemon_2> Still, I'm sure that a SCO UNIX product would make a "nice" accompaniment to that

[18:16] < Davbo> I wish I could work out what Google has done in its attempt to index my page..

[18:16] < Davbo> www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Awaydowninthehole.com

[18:16] < Davbo> first one is correct, the rest are seemingly random :/

[18:17] < Davbo> considering a week ago it didn't appear in the index at all

[18:19] < vmlemon_2> Grr, "svn: Can't open file '/home/tyson/i9os/Personalities/GenodeKit/build.pistachio_x86/etc/.svn/tmp/text-base/pistachio.conf.svn-base': No such file or directory"

[18:19] *** vmlemon_2 kicks Subversion hard

[18:19] < vmlemon_2> Not sure why it insists on choking on files in the same directory, every time

[18:20] < vmlemon_2> Or even what it's doing with a .svn-base file or directory

[18:20] < Davbo> can't be as bad as whats happened at my Uni, people copying folders about (with hidden dir's) between different repo's

[18:21] < vmlemon_2> I've seen this error 3 times today, and I still can't figure out how it should be resolved

[18:21] < vmlemon_2> Naturally, the SVN documentation and mailing list posts are useless

[18:21] < Davbo> tried cleanup?

[18:21] < vmlemon_2> Yeah

[18:21] < vmlemon_2> It works once in a blue moon

[18:21] < vmlemon_2> Other times, SVN bitches about something else being locked, that isn't

[18:22] < Davbo> i think you can force unlock/lock

[18:22] < vmlemon_2> Yay

[18:22] < vmlemon_2> svn cleanup actually worked this time

[18:22] *** vmlemon_2 is shocked

[18:23] < vmlemon_2> It reminds me of a broken vending machine

[18:23] < vmlemon_2> (You put a coin in, it retains it, and it takes a ton of thrashing, before you either receive the coin or the product)

[18:24] < Davbo> lol

[18:24] < vmlemon_2> If you're lucky, you'll get the product, and more change than you put in

[18:25] < vmlemon_2> How fun, just when I thought I solved a linking problem, another one magically appears in the same component

[18:26] < vmlemon_2> Although this time, libsupc++.a is the thing to blame, for some unfathomable reason

[18:27] < vmlemon_2> I've touched very little code to date, and most of the work I've done is trying to glue bits together so that it at least builds in some reproducible way, so far

[18:29] < vmlemon_2> Yay for obscure errors that some people have probably encountered, but couldn't be assed to actually document or ask on mailing lists/support channels about, so that some information is accessible

[20:17] *** Davbo_ has joined #kamaelia

[20:51] *** Uraeus has joined #kamaelia

[23:08] *** Lawouach has joined #kamaelia