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[08:43] < Lawouach> hi folks

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[09:25] < MS-> greetings

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[11:37] < vmlemon_1> Hi

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[11:53] < Lawouach_> back

[11:56] < Lawouach_> MS-: I have a feeling it was for the best we didn't do GSoC this year

[11:57] < Lawouach_> we all look busy busy already :)

[11:57] < MS-> I think so. I'm actually planning on spending the time I'd spend on GSOC normally on actually improving kamaelia instead - which strikes me as a good idea :)

[11:58] < Lawouach_> it does indeed :-)

[11:58] < Lawouach_> Also, it sounds, going through of the mentor list, that it slowly becomes a heavy machinery with lots of bureaucracy

[12:02] < MS-> Quite possibly.

[12:04] < Lawouach_> anyhow, what's on your plate in regards to K. then?

[12:05] < MS-> Well, getting Steve's code merged was one thing, but I've also been experimenting with a new axon core

[12:06] < MS-> For which I've created a scratch google project as a place to dump my code ideas without cluttering up kamaelia's SVN

[12:06] < MS-> That's currently sitting here:

[12:06] < MS-> http://code.google.com/p/kamaelian/source/browse/sketches/Axon/

[12:07] < MS-> The difference really though is that I'm building up checking performance constantly along the way adding functionality in

[12:07] < MS-> primarily so that I know the overall cost

[12:07] < Lawouach_> sounds good

[12:07] < MS-> Also, simon wittber's benchmarks give me a baseline

[12:08] < MS-> I'm also planning on taking Jesse's comments about the website to heart and going to try and make the website *clearer*

[12:08] < MS-> Which is always hard, since it's always* clear to the writer

[12:08] < Lawouach_> it's very hard indeed

[12:09] < MS-> I'm on leave for the next 2 weeks as well, so the first week I'll not do a huge amount, but the second week I plan to do a fair amount of kamaelia hacking.

[12:09] < Lawouach_> Problem is you have one single landing page for many different people from various background and expectations

[12:09] < MS-> Currently I'm rebuilding threaded components

[12:09] < MS-> Yes, that is a key problem

[12:09] < MS-> Jesse's talk at pycon - which spent ~2 minutes on kamaelia was helpful for making it clear what he thought is the problem

[12:10] < MS-> As well as some follow ups since then

[12:10] < MS-> (The video is online - I watched it last night)

[12:10] < Lawouach_> http://divmod.org/trac < -- I think this is the kind of landing page I'd expect eventually

[12:12] < MS-> Thing is I think that has the same problem from Jesse's perspective

[12:12] < MS-> Suppose you know nothing about twisted for example

[12:12] < MS-> where do you start on that page?

[12:13] < Lawouach_> true

[12:13] < MS-> You can see there's lots of cool stuff, and you know its good because lots of people say so - but where do you start

[12:13] < Lawouach_> you probably need something at a higher level

[12:13] < MS-> Which was the criticism of kamaelia

[12:13] < MS-> his point of "pulling out and showcasing Axon" was more of a side note

[12:14] < MS-> I think the point is the site needs to follow through common use cases, and help with those.

[12:15] < MS-> It's the same sort of thing that Kathy Sierra has talked about for years as well.

[12:15] < Lawouach_> ain't easy though considering how much stuff Kamaelia does

[12:16] < Lawouach_> perhaps focusing on Axon would be better

[12:16] < MS-> Her starting point is to suggest treating learning complex things like computerr games

[12:16] < MS-> Indeed

[12:16] < MS-> ie the idea being at each point people learn to do more.

[12:18] < Patrick`> yeah

[12:18] < Patrick`> I have to admit, it's a bit obtuse at times (the website)

[12:18] < Patrick`> I would be available for consult as a source of reliable uninformedness

[12:19] < Lawouach_> :)

[12:19] < MS-> Patrick`: That's really helpful, believe it or not

[12:19] < Patrick`> I know

[12:19] < Patrick`> I've got tangled in stuff like that before

[12:20] < Patrick`> When I took a summer job in the civil service, I redesigned the induction pack

[12:20] < Patrick`> my most employable skill was that I was a noob

[12:20] < MS-> I've also come across this BTW: Dreyfus Model of Skill Acquisition - which looks like a really useful guide for trying to understand skill levels

[12:20] < MS-> (since teaching is really about moving between skill levels)

[12:21] < MS-> I came across that here: http://oreilly.com/catalog/9781934356050/ (Pragmatic Thinking and Learning)

[12:24] < MS-> BTW, regarding this new core: fibra results:

[12:24] < MS-> "import hackysack" "hackysack.runit(10000,1000,0)"

[12:24] < MS-> 10 loops, best of 3: 521 msec per loop

[12:24] < MS-> vs New core results:

[12:24] < MS-> "Hackysacker.runit(10000,1000,0)"

[12:24] < MS-> 10 loops, best of 3: 339 msec per loop

[12:24] < Patrick`> *high five*

[12:24] < MS-> :)

[12:25] < Patrick`> although optimising python for performance is like teaching a ballet dancer to punch harder

[12:25] < MS-> New core is also threadsafe regarding scheduler allocation - to the extent of using STM

[12:26] < Patrick`> ok, I give up

[12:26] < MS-> heh

[12:26] < Patrick`> a cursory google tells me what stm stands fo

[12:26] < Patrick`> but what's the ... feeling of it, the shape of it

[12:26] < MS-> STM == version control for variables

[12:26] < Patrick`> we need a better word in english

[12:26] < Patrick`> ah

[12:26] < Lawouach_> MS-: impressive

[12:26] < Patrick`> ok, I'm just wrong

[12:27] < MS-> Lawouach_: I'm currently working on adding threads back in at an early level

[12:27] < Lawouach_> right

[12:27] < MS-> I can actually get a *much* faster result than that using the scheduler btw

[12:27] < MS-> But it's not using normal kamaelia approaches

[12:30] < MS-> To put it into perspective though the figures for Kamaelia 0.6.0:

[12:30] < MS-> "import hackysack" "hackysack.runit(10000,1000,0)"

[12:30] < MS-> 10 loops, best of 3: 5.59 sec per loop

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[12:31] < MS-> So about a 16 fold speed up

[12:35] < Lawouach_> yeha

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[14:08] < Davbo> afternoon all

[14:13] < vmlemon_2> Hi Davbo

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