[09:22] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[09:22] < MS-> morning

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[12:13] < vmlemon_> Hi

[12:13] < Davbo> Hey

[13:57] < vmlemon_> Hah, http://twitter.com/saill/status/1325506988

[14:06] < Patrick`> "this machine keeps shredding my clothes!"

[14:06] < vmlemon_> Haha

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[15:23] < vmlemon_> Hi Chong-

[15:23] < Chong-> Hi vmlemon_

[15:23] < Chong-> Afternoon, all.

[15:28] < vmlemon_> Heh, I'm surprised that I'm not too far off making 1,300 Twitter posts...

[15:30] < Chong-> vmlemon_: congrats :-)

[15:31] < vmlemon_> (At 1,293 right now)

[15:34] < Chong-> 7 to go :-)

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[17:59] *** vmlemon_1 is now known as vmlemon_

[18:00] < vmlemon_> And I just hit 1,300!

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[19:07] < Chong-> vmlemon_: cool :-)

[19:08] < Chong-> vmlemon_: BTW, how are you recently?

[19:08] < vmlemon_> So-so

[19:08] < vmlemon_> I've just been feeling really tired as of late :(

[19:09] < vmlemon_> Just remembered that I've still got about 3 bits of coursework outstanding, and they're about to start on a new timetable on Monday, so I don't know what my chances of finishing that is...

[19:10] < Chong-> hehe

[19:11] < vmlemon_> Naturally, it's all stuff that I understand, but seem to be stuck when it comes to figuring out the criteria to meet...

[19:12] < Chong-> what coursework are you working on?

[19:13] < vmlemon_> 2 tasks related to network and physical security, some health and safety crap, and something to do with deciding when to upgrade systems, if I remember correctly

[19:15] < Chong-> cool. I think you are very good at network etc,

[19:15] < vmlemon_> I did have some tasks related to stuff like purchase order systems, although I managed to complete them about 5 months after they were initially due

[19:15] < vmlemon_> Of course, others also ended up completing that stuff last too, for some reason...

[19:16] < vmlemon_> I probably managed to get task 2 90% complete, before I managed to get task 1 even half-done

[19:17] < Chong-> purchase order systems, a database driven website?

[19:17] < vmlemon_> Something to do with types of information, and data flows between departments of an example organisation

[19:18] < vmlemon_> (A restaurant chain, if I vaguely remember correctly)

[19:18] < Chong-> some kind of MIS (management information system)?

[19:18] < vmlemon_> Exactly

[19:19] < Chong-> I see.

[19:19] < Chong-> What language did you use to implement it?

[19:20] < vmlemon_> We didn't actually implemented it, we just had to make a tonne of assumptions about the departments of the said chain (only 5 were listed), and had to do some reports

[19:20] < vmlemon_> *implement

[19:20] < vmlemon_> Not to mention the diagram :(

[19:21] < vmlemon_> (I did about 5 iterations, before I was told that you can't use double-headed arrows, and that certain systems/departments in fact weren't)

[19:21] < vmlemon_> Not really all that thrilling, when you get right down to it, although I managed to complete it

[19:21] < vmlemon_> Thankfully, the last task was much easier

[19:22] < vmlemon_> (Was a presentation related to various information storage and processing tools, and their use cases)

[19:22] < Chong-> cool. seems like business analysis

[19:22] < Chong-> Is it a team work?

[19:24] < vmlemon_> The end product wasn't, but you could always share ideas and although you weren't supposed to, some passed around sanitised versions of diagrams and reports

[19:24] < vmlemon_> I remember 2 other students handing in an almost identical diagram, since they used the same source file

[19:25] < vmlemon_> Not sure if the other one bothered to remove the other person's name from the footer ;)

[19:26] < vmlemon_> Naturally, there was a debate spanning several sessions amongst us about whether or not Intranets, e-mail systems and presentation software counted as "information processing software/systems)

[19:26] < vmlemon_> "

[19:27] < Chong-> hehe

[19:28] < vmlemon_> The conclusion - they weren't

[19:29] *** vmlemon_ sees that "Device Updates" has returned to Twitter

[19:29] < Chong-> Because they don't **process** information?

[19:30] < vmlemon_> Aye, they only either store or transmit it

[19:30] < Chong-> intresting

[19:31] < vmlemon_> I see that that Facebook has had yet another make-over...

[19:31] < vmlemon_> It wasn't long ago that certain pages were accessible via new.facebook.com or something like that, and people were complaining about that iteration

[19:31] < vmlemon_> Still, I rarely use it

[19:32] < vmlemon_> (I prefer to spend time on IRC, Twitter and FriendFeed)

[19:33] < vmlemon_> I've managed to break the Windows 7 beta a few times, since I've tried it

[19:34] < Chong-> it seems facebook and other social networks are more popular in the people who don't know computer very well

[19:34] < vmlemon_> Interesting thought

[19:34] < Chong-> how did you break it?

[19:34] < vmlemon_> I would have thought that the less tech-savvy folks would have shied away from social media/networking

[19:36] < Chong-> social media/networking are easy to use, even easier than computer in some sense

[19:36] < vmlemon_> Installed a beta ATI video adapter pack that didn't support the card I had, and hit a bug in the network stack related to "TDI drivers" built for earlier versions of Windows and SMB

[19:36] < Chong-> and everyone needs social whether tech-savvy or not

[19:37] < vmlemon_> Turns out that MS released a Hotfix for that issue

[19:37] < vmlemon_> Surprisingly

[19:37] < vmlemon_> Although you had to register to obtain it, and were went the URL via e-mail, which seemed a little shady to me

[19:37] < vmlemon_> *sent

[19:37] < vmlemon_> (Along with a password to extract the self-extracting Zip archive)

[19:38] < Chong-> I heard Windows 7 is more usable and accessible. What do you think of it?

[19:38] < vmlemon_> It's a mixed bag

[19:39] < vmlemon_> I can't really compare it to Windows Vista, since I passed on it, although it screamed "KDE 4" at first glance

[19:40] < vmlemon_> Trying to configure the network stack to use a PPP connection shared from my laptop wasn't at all fun

[19:41] < vmlemon_> The Control Panel still seems a little cumbersome to navigate, although I assume that it's possible to permanently set it to classic mode, and there are annoying issues related to window handling

[19:41] < Chong-> I see.

[19:42] < vmlemon_> (i.e. instead of just being clipped/hidden when you "throw" them to the edge of the screen, they're maximised)

[19:42] < Chong-> Have you tried the new taskbar and multiple windows etc.?

[19:42] < vmlemon_> The taskbar was OK

[19:43] < vmlemon_> I found it interesting that instead of/as well as switching between Internet Explorer (and I think, Firefox) windows, it let you switch between tabs

[19:43] < Chong-> I tried KDE 4, it consumed too much system resource.

[19:44] < Chong-> interesting

[19:44] < vmlemon_> I'm using KDE 4 right now, and haven't had that much trouble, barring some Bluetooth-related issues that still haven't been resolved

[19:45] < vmlemon_> The Windows version seemed crashtastic when I tried it, although some apps were relatively stable

[19:45] < vmlemon_> I finally updated the firmware on my phone, too

[19:46] < vmlemon_> Wasn't really that impressed, and I'm shocked by how buggy it is for a final release

[19:46] < vmlemon_> Sadly, it isn't possible to downgrade it

[19:47] < Chong-> probably because I am using a relatively old pc (768m memory), it almost uses up all my memory after starting the xwindow

[19:47] < vmlemon_> Aah

[19:47] < vmlemon_> Ouch

[19:48] < Chong-> so, now I stick to icewm

[19:49] < Chong-> windows usually doesn't become stable until sp1 or sp2

[19:52] < vmlemon_> Looks like the firmware upgrade added a few minor performance improvements, broke compatibility with back-ups stored on MMC cards using older versions (so I had to use an older SIM card, and some data stored on the MMC card to make up for what I couldn't recover), moved some stuff around in the Messaging application, added a fugly new "Web 'N' Walk" Active Standby icon and softkey (complete with jarring T-Mobile magenta and Times New Roman text,

[19:53] < vmlemon_> It also seemed to have broken some Java applications on the MMC card, although it might be a file system problem

[19:55] < vmlemon_> Looks like it also changed the file name/path format in the Camera application

[19:56] < Chong-> usually you need to reinstall all soft after the firmware upgrade

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[20:00] < vmlemon_> Meh, looks like something was preventing windows from accepting keypresses and mouse clicks, so I had to kill X off :(

[20:01] < vmlemon_> I found it interesting that the native Symbian OS applications on the card survived the firmware update, but the Java applications didn't, strangely

[20:02] < vmlemon_> (They don't even store data on the internal Flash memory, unless they're stored there, ironically)

[20:03] < Chong-> strange. Are they not the same version jvm?

[20:04] < vmlemon_> Good question, although I doubt they've updated it

[20:04] < vmlemon_> Unless I was to dissect the firmware image files that NSU downloaded

[20:05] < vmlemon_> (About 6 files totalling 35MB that seemingly get merged somehow when installed on the phone, although I couldn't find stuff like the kernel in the largest file)

[20:07] < Chong-> how did you check if the kernel in a file or not?

[20:08] < vmlemon_> The largest appears to be some sort of file system dump, and contains a number of EPOC/Symbian OS executables and configuration files

[20:09] < vmlemon_> I'd expect that the JVM would be a set of modules

[20:09] < vmlemon_> (Spread across several executables and shared libraries)

[20:09] < Chong-> I see.

[20:10] < vmlemon_> Aah

[20:10] < vmlemon_> *Aha

[20:11] < Chong-> What software do you use to **open** the file?

[20:11] < vmlemon_> I just found the 2 RAR archives containing the update files that I rescued from the AppData directory

[20:11] < vmlemon_> Just a text editor, initially

[20:12] < Chong-> interesting

[20:13] < vmlemon_> Looks like there's 7 files in total

[20:13] < vmlemon_> One of them's a Zip archive

[20:14] < vmlemon_> (Although it doesn't appear to be that interesting - it's about 30KB, and contains a PNG image of the phone model, and what appear to be configuration files)

[20:16] < vmlemon_> 50638301_RM84rd.VH8 (13MB), and rm84_50638301.c0 (30MB) seem to be the most likely candidates

[20:18] < vmlemon_> "BB5 ALGORITHM", "OMAP1610 GBBM-1.8.1" and "Elf2flash 02.41.000" are probably the most interesting strings in the immediate header of rm84_50638301.c0, although some stuff that presumably relates to encryption is there, too

[20:19] < vmlemon_> Looks like I may have found the bootloader

[20:21] < vmlemon_> Lots of UTF-16 strings containing text along the lines of " G e n e r a t i n g D S P B o o t T i m e C o r e D u m p a n d r e s t a r t D S P o n c e m o r e !", "H e l l o t r a c e l i b r a r y w o r l d", "TSC_SD_PAPC_MOIBANITNOT_SE" and "S D R A M t e s t d o n e ."

[20:22] < vmlemon_> Haven't done the Profanity Test yet, although that's sometimes fun ;)

[20:24] < vmlemon_> "0 == ((uint32)source & (KERNEL_DEFAULT_PAGE_SIZE-1)) 0 == ((uint32)target & (KERNEL_DEFAULT_PAGE_SIZE-1))", ""This OS function can't be called from IRQ"", and "Please note that variable hw_latest_reset_reason is NOT updated"

[20:25] < vmlemon_> Heh, just found ""Unknown I/O pin type or state something gibberish"" and ""You should not get here?""

[20:25] *** vmlemon_ wonders if he's looking at the Baseband firmware

[20:26] < vmlemon_> It looks like some sort of non-Symbian OS pre-boot environment written in C

[20:28] < Chong-> that's very interesting

[20:28] *** vmlemon_ looks in the other file, given that he can't find any references to e32kern.exe

[20:29] < vmlemon_> Although there are references to Symbian Ltd, later on

[20:29] < vmlemon_> Ooh, lots of PNG images so it seems

[20:30] < vmlemon_> ("IEND", "IHDR" and "Photoshop ICC profile" gives them away)

[20:31] < vmlemon_> Looks like they used Adobe ImageReady...

[20:31] < vmlemon_> Just found some MPEG-4 data, I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't a ringtone]

[20:32] < vmlemon_> Looks like something registers the Java mimetypes somewhere

[20:37] *** vmlemon_ assumes that the stuff in the 2 image files gets amalgamated into the content of the "Z:\" drive at flashing time, given that the smaller image contains things like the Web Browser, fonts (there's a Monotype EULA in there, which isn't accessible otherwise, even with 3rd party tools, as far as I know), and some other applications

[20:39] < vmlemon_> Lots of configuration files that relate to Java, and "Valid to Starting Java virtual machine..." is mentioned in what appears to be a copy of Opera

[20:42] < vmlemon_> Haha, ""Eh tried to combine EXCLUSIVE states? BAD CODER! BAAAD CODER!""

[20:44] < Chong-> hehe. so probably because the configuration files that relate to Java have changed, so java apps failed

[20:45] < Chong-> impressive, what software do you use to access the C:/ phone drive?

[20:45] < vmlemon_> Not sure if they don't try to "patch around" what's already installed, but seeing machine code for a bootloader and a W-CDMA/GSM radio stack makes me wonder

[20:46] < vmlemon_> I installed some Java applications since the upgrade, and they appear to work, for what it's worth

[20:47] < vmlemon_> A handy tool called FExplorer on the phone itself, although what I've just found is directly from the firmware download that Nokia Software Update left behind

[20:47] < vmlemon_> You can get access to stuff like the kernel image binary though, on the phone itself, without fuss

[20:48] < vmlemon_> Which seems inconsistent, unless they're encrypting it in the firmware images, and decrypt it later after installation

[20:50] < vmlemon_> I managed to find Z:\System\Apps\startup\startup.app (25.6KB) in the ROM image dump, too...

[20:50] < Chong-> probably

[20:51] < Chong-> cool :-)

[20:53] < vmlemon_> Z:\System\Programs\Starter.exe, is present and correct in both

[20:53] *** vmlemon_ suspects some kind of obfuscation, given that it was easily accessible in the older firmware

[21:01] < vmlemon_> Unless they've since renamed it, or combined it's functionality into another binary

[21:01] < vmlemon_> Although I doubt they'd do an architecture change like that in a relatively minor update

[21:01] < vmlemon_> Heh, they have a random.dll

[21:02] < vmlemon_> Z:\System\Libs\EKern.exe is it, according to Google

[21:02] < vmlemon_> How lucky - http://my-symbian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27633 supposedly has a teardown/dissection of the N70 ROM

[21:03] < vmlemon_> Although I can't actually find that filename

[21:04] < Chong-> interesting

[21:04] *** vmlemon_ is having a WTF? Moment

[21:05] < Chong-> does symbian more like a windows/dos os or a *nix os?

[21:05] < vmlemon_> I can see that it's running on my phone, if I have a look at the Process Monitor in FExplorer

[21:07] < vmlemon_> It appears that it's somewhat like DOS in the user/developer-facing design

[21:07] < vmlemon_> Internally, it's nothing like ither

[21:07] < vmlemon_> *either

[21:07] < vmlemon_> It was based on Psion's EPOC initially, if I remember correctly

[21:07] < vmlemon_> Although the newest versions supposedly support "standard" POSIX APIs and C

[21:09] < vmlemon_> ekern.exe and ISA_KERNEL_IF.DLL happen to be in that directory, although I have no idea about where they are in the firmware images

[21:09] < vmlemon_> Of course, they have to exist somewhere, in some form, in order to flash them onto the phone in the first place

[21:11] *** vmlemon_ copies the file onto his phone's memory card to examine

[21:11] < Chong-> cool. thanks for your explanation

[21:15] < vmlemon_> Looks like the file itself is 193.8KB

[21:17] < vmlemon_> Tell-tale strings in UTF-16 format and ASCII - "Lv1_DMACh0", "Lv2_McBSP2RXOverflow", "debug instr Instantiation failed ." (actually UTF-18, although I've removed the padding spaces for readability), and "This function isnot ment to be called !!!!!" (also originally UTF-16)

[21:18] < vmlemon_> Not sure how it's possible to "lose"/"hide" 193.8KB of data altogether, even with compression

[21:19] < vmlemon_> Looks like those strings don't appear in either image file

[21:19] < vmlemon_> How quaint

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[21:23] < vmlemon_1> Symbian OS itself is written almost entirely in a heavily extended subset of C++, or at least the 7.x series, and all versions prior to it are (although as far as I know, there's likely to be a large body of standard C code in the latest version because of the POSIX compatibility layer/"Open C")

[21:34] < Chong-> "Unfortunately, Symbian C++ programming has a steep learning curve, as Symbian requires the use of special techniques such as descriptors and the cleanup stack"

[21:35] < vmlemon_1> There is a Python interpreter, and of course the JVM

[21:37] < vmlemon_1> Heh, it looks like they've finally updated their website

[21:45] < Chong-> yes. I have tried the Python interpreter. it's interesting

[21:46] < vmlemon_1> The killer apps, so far - the "bouncing ball" game, and the last.fm client that doesn't actually work ;)

[21:46] < vmlemon_1> *tech demo

[21:48] < vmlemon_1> Oh, and the rotating OpenGL cube

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