[07:10] *** aa_ has joined #kamaelia

[07:17] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[07:36] < Lawouach> morning

[10:30] *** Uraeus has joined #kamaelia

[11:30] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[11:30] < MS-> afternoon

[11:50] < Lawouach> hi Michael

[12:04] < MS-> hiya

[12:04] < MS-> I've done a fair amount of tidying up yesterday of /branches

[12:05] < MS-> Branches left to deal with are these:

[12:05] < MS-> private_CL_Topology3D/

[12:05] < MS-> private_DK_PaintDev/

[12:05] < MS-> private_JMB_Wsgi/

[12:05] < MS-> private_JT_JamDev/

[12:05] < MS-> private_MPS_Scratch/

[12:05] < MS-> private_PO_Tests/

[12:05] < MS-> which should be interesting given the lack of documentation

[12:08] < MS-> the gsoc2008 branches contained zero information about what was in them, so I've just treated them as tags

[12:14] < Lawouach> I see

[12:17] < MS-> Also, no-one has stuck around to assist with merging their code either.

[12:17] < MS-> I've come to the conclusion now that summer of code doesn't achieve its goals and I doubt I'll be participating again

[12:18] < MS-> I thought by saying to people "hey, please come work on something you personally have an interest in" that they'd be encouraged to stick around, but it seems that doesn't work

[12:21] < MS-> Problem is the incentive model is all wrong.

[12:28] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[12:32] < Lawouach> MS-: I understand

[12:33] < Lawouach> Mind you

[12:34] < Lawouach> Perhaps we weren't clear enough about the exact goals of GSoC from the project's perspective

[12:34] < Lawouach> Did we comminucate well enough?

[12:34] < Lawouach> I'm honestly asking BTW

[12:35] < MS-> It's not really that, I think GSoC itself is fundamentally flawed, given clay shirky's talk which I linked to on twitter a few weeks back

[12:35] < Lawouach> Because we also explained that we were trying to give the students tools to understand OSS

[12:35] *** Lawouach will look for that talk again

[12:36] < MS-> http://tinyurl.com/5u9jby

[12:36] < Lawouach> http://twitter.com/kamaelian/statuses/1016358560

[12:36] < Lawouach> found :)

[12:39] < Lawouach> That's btw a reason why I've always kept everything I'm doing with Kamaelia outside of it

[12:39] < Lawouach> I know I can't commit

[12:39] < Lawouach> At least not that way

[12:39] *** MS- nods

[12:40] < MS-> I also realise that the phrase "good intentions" plays a big part here

[12:40] < Lawouach> But then again I'm really wondering if we can be unhappy our students didn't commit considering we never really said it was part of the deal

[12:40] < MS-> But there's the bit in clay shirky's talk about experiments involving 2 groups of volunteers that I think deals with the most

[12:41] *** Davbo has good intentions, also has too much happening at home with family to find the time

[12:41] < MS-> Lawouach: I asked every student for the past 2 years about how they'd ensure (at minimum) code maintenance

[12:41] < Lawouach> okay

[12:41] < MS-> Davbo: Indeed - that falls into the category of good intentions

[12:42] < MS-> However, I also have a huge amount going on at home with family and I find the time, which means fundamentally our emotional investment with things is different (which is absolutely fine).

[12:42] < MS-> (different people are different)

[12:42] < Davbo> whenever I have the time I have other university work to do, even that I've fallen behind with and has started to have a visible impact unfortunately

[12:42] < Davbo> your investment is a different one though MS-

[12:42] < MS-> Davbo: precisely

[12:43] < MS-> And that is also the point

[12:43] < MS-> (which isn't personal to you or any other gsoc student :) )

[12:43] < MS-> It's the old phrase "you can't buy love" that really matters - and in a way that's what gsoc tries to do

[12:43] < Davbo> but hey, I've stuck around and answered a few peoples questions on IRC the best i can

[12:44] < MS-> Davbo: I'm in NO way criticising you or any other gsoc student

[12:44] < Davbo> yeah, i know that but I think GSoC did work on me to a degree

[12:44] < MS-> I prefer to try and understand the over "why doesn't gsoc work and is it worth doing again in future years" rather than go "awww why don't they love me :)"

[12:44] < MS-> Davbo: That's cool :)

[12:46] < Lawouach> MS-: That is very sensible and I share your doubts

[12:46] < MS-> It's also not just gsoc itself btw

[12:46] < Davbo> If they didn't offer the money it would be interesting

[12:47] < Davbo> they could spend the money on other things to reach out to the correct people

[12:47] < MS-> There are major aspects of the project's goals/direction which are very difficult to grasp, primarily because I've been a bit crap at explaining them

[12:47] < Davbo> which right now it doesn't seem to be doing

[12:47] < MS-> It's hit rate is better than zero, which is pretty good.

[12:47] < MS-> But the money aspect does rather break things

[12:48] < Davbo> I'd have still done it, but it wasn't a replacement for a summer job to me, which it was to many I talked to

[12:48] < MS-> If a student doesn't do "good enough" work or totally irrelevant or < insert list> then the aspect of with-holding the money, is a massively different dynamic from normal

[12:49] < MS-> since rather than just a lack of feedback and lack of merge (ie lack of carrot)

[12:49] < MS-> there's an actual stick as well, which doesn't work

[12:49] < MS-> at all

[12:50] < MS-> But it also means that you can't drop someone without that stick being implicitly wielded either

[12:50] < MS-> which is really crap

[12:50] < Davbo> Yeah, i see what you mean

[12:50] < MS-> (especially given as mentors we don't have that incentive/disincentive)

[12:51] < MS-> It is very curious almost a classic example of the psych test that Clay Shirky talks about in that test

[12:51] < MS-> in that talk

[12:52] < MS-> non-paid students asked to play & do tasks continue to play afterwards

[12:52] < MS-> paid students asked to do tasks and paid per task, do not play afterwards (or whilst their waiting for new tasks when the person is out the room)

[12:53] < Lawouach> I just heard him relating that experience

[12:53] *** Davbo has to go hang out washing

[12:53] < Lawouach> quite interesting in many ways

[12:53] < Davbo> sorry, brb :-)

[12:53] < MS-> Davbo: have fun - I have to go shopping :)

[12:53] < MS-> back later :)

[12:53] < Lawouach> later guys

[13:47] *** Davbo does his predicate logic homework :(

[13:50] < Davbo> if anyone wants a challenge: http://www.mazapan.se/games/BurnTheRope.php

[18:03] *** MS- has parted #kamaelia

[18:03] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[19:04] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia