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[08:36] < vmlemon_> Hi

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[08:43] < MS-> morning

[08:43] < vmlemon_> Hi MS-

[08:49] < MS-> For reference, http://www.kamaelia.org/ReleaseProgress070 is the place to look for things

[08:49] < MS-> This is actually linked from here: http://www.kamaelia.org/Developers/

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[10:35] *** MS- notes not one GSOC student, past or recent present

[10:37] < elvum> aw

[10:37] < MS-> elvum: I always wondered whether they would hang around or not in practical ways, but they don't

[10:38] < MS-> I like the idea of GSOC, but quite frankly it's a waste of time due to the payments to students

[10:38] < elvum> mmm

[10:38] < MS-> There's a clay shirky talk that contains a reference to an experiment

[10:38] < elvum> it's a waste of time in the way that you care about, certainly

[10:38] < MS-> http://tinyurl.com/5u9jby

[10:39] < MS-> Well, basically it shows that you can take two identical groups of people in almost every way

[10:39] < MS-> One lot you say "play with this and make these shapes"

[10:39] < MS-> and another lot you do the same, except say "we'll pay you for it"

[10:39] < MS-> The researchers then leave the room for precisely 8 minutes

[10:40] < MS-> The ones doing it because of the inherent joy/happiness of playing (ie that's their only benefit) keep on doing so

[10:40] < MS-> The one's paid stop immediately

[10:40] < MS-> That's exactly the behaviour we see with gsoc

[10:41] < MS-> pathological case happened in our first year, with one student who worked only when prompted and worked right up to the very deadline

[10:41] < MS-> (literally to the minute)

[10:41] < MS-> and then stopped

[10:41] < MS-> and never said a word since

[10:42] < MS-> Similarly this year, there's been someone who disappeared completely and hasn't been seen since the deadline day

[10:43] < MS-> whereas, I don't work on kamaelia at work (and haven't for some time), but do almost entirely on my own time, and similarly for others.

[10:43] < MS-> People who code for fun are welcome :)

[10:44] < MS-> I'm going to be wary of mercenaries and mercenary situations from now on

[10:44] < aa_> gimme monies!

[10:45] < MS-> heheh

[10:45] < MS-> I'd love to :)

[10:46] < MS-> elvum: It was prompted by a GSOC student from summer just gone saying "would doing X be too much of a maintenance burden", when they're not even maintaining their own code

[10:46] < vmlemon_> Pablo?

[10:48] < elvum> money kills romance, can't say I'm surprised...

[10:49] < MS-> No, Jason - he's very enthusiastic about things, but he's not even got his code ready for merge.

[10:49] < MS-> vmlemon_: Joe disappeared completely and hasn't been seen since

[10:50] < MS-> which is sad, since I thought he actually cared about his project

[10:50] < MS-> Anyhow it looks like the approach of saying "guys, tell us a project you're passionate about that can use Kamaelia, and we'll go with that" seems to have failed to entice gsoc students to hang around

[10:51] < elvum> the bbc is unusual in that people are acrually passionate about the stuff they get paid to do, I guess

[10:51] < MS-> But then I don't see new active contributors generated by gsoc on the other projects that I'm around either

[10:51] < MS-> elvum: If money was more important to people at the BBC, we wouldn't be at the BBC

[10:51] < MS-> I took a pay cut to join for example

[10:51] < elvum> true

[10:51] < MS-> very happily too

[10:52] < MS-> Also, in a way my motivation with kamaelia has actually increased since it was removed from the workplan, rather than decreased

[10:53] < MS-> probably because I'm no longer forced to think "how is this relevant to possible project I'm not interested in" :-)

[10:53] < MS-> which is probably why I've found it useful for stuff at work since :)

[10:53] < MS-> (a paradox of gilbert and sullivan proportions)

[10:56] < MS-> (not that I wouldn't want it back on the workplan mind :) )

[11:25] *** MS- has parted #kamaelia

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[11:46] < vmlemon_> Hi wyleu

[11:46] < wyleu> hello vm, how's things?

[11:47] < vmlemon_> OK, just slightly annoyed at SchlundTech's DNS servers being down, since they're stopping folks from accessing the website of a project I'm on... :(

[11:48] < wyleu> I've got a project done, (or started anyway !) :D

[11:48] < vmlemon_> Still, the long but ugly Google Sites links still work

[11:48] < vmlemon_> thankfully

[11:48] < vmlemon_> (http://sites.google.com/a/puredarwin.org/puredarwin/)

[11:49] < wyleu> is the darwin a Mac reference or havve I got the wrong end of the stick?

[11:50] < vmlemon_> Yes, it's essentially the open-sourced parts of Mac OS X

[11:50] < vmlemon_> (and a few binary-only components needed to make it boot)

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[11:51] < wyleu> sorry chatzilla lost the ability to enter text :(

[11:51] < vmlemon_> Ouch

[11:52] < wyleu> ICeWeasel seems 'intrusive'

[11:52] < vmlemon_> It's weaselling out of working properly? ;)

[11:52] *** vmlemon_ ducks

[11:53] < wyleu> your punishment will be an moment of horrible realisation sometime in the future, Anyway I've done http://195.112.27.196:81/sensor/ it's not much to look at yet but it's help

[11:54] < wyleu> it's held up for a month now so I'm happy with that.

[11:54] < vmlemon_> Hah

[11:54] < vmlemon_> Rainbow!

[11:54] < vmlemon_> What's the sensor for, out of interest?

[11:54] < wyleu> It's the first of many one-wire thermometers...

[11:55] < vmlemon_> Aah, cool

[11:55] < wyleu> it will look bit sexier soon http://195.112.27.196:81/site_media/imagemap005.png

[11:55] < wyleu> Sorry about the advertising, but they have paid me for it.

[11:55] < vmlemon_> Ugh, I have the German version of "99 Red Balloons" stuck in my head for some reason, and I haven't even listened to it... :|

[11:55] < vmlemon_> OK

[11:56] < wyleu> LuftBalloon... ?

[11:56] < vmlemon_> Aye

[11:56] < vmlemon_> Ironically, I don't particularly like that song

[11:57] < wyleu> That's a good hook line for you...

[11:57] < vmlemon_> Heh

[11:58] < wyleu> I'm thinking of popping kamaelia sockets on the outside front edge of the sphere...

[11:58] < vmlemon_> Cool

[11:59] < vmlemon_> Hmm, you're using the Dallas 1-Wire devices under Linux? Or something else?

[11:59] < wyleu> Press on, fires up the connection, if you have a client loaded.

[11:59] < wyleu> Linux, using owfs

[11:59] < vmlemon_> Sounds interesting

[11:59] *** vmlemon_ wants to try the iButton or ZigBee stuff, some time

[12:00] < wyleu> I've got 50 sensors and the research dept of the company to wire up and display...

[12:00] < vmlemon_> The dome is a model of a specific building?

[12:00] < wyleu> ZigBee is looking interesting but it's still petty power hungry and boy is the codding complicated

[12:00] *** vmlemon_ thinks Kamaelia integration might be fun/interesting

[12:01] < wyleu> No the dome and cube is a generalized representation of a location. You press on it to login

[12:01] < vmlemon_> Aah

[12:01] < wyleu> then you get to see the actual described model at the location. The surface sockets could play you background music...

[12:02] < vmlemon_> I bet the fact that there's loads of different protocols other than the ZigBee ones for 802.15.4 makes it problematic

[12:02] < wyleu> yes, it's very heavyweight and seems to need busy processors which tends to upset the smaller PIC users.

[12:12] < vmlemon_> Outside of the implementation in the Segway products, the SunSpot stuff and a load of development equipment, I can't say I've actually heard of any IEEE 802.15.4/ZigBee products targeted towards "the general public"

[12:13] < wyleu> Coming to a lightbulb and wallswitch near you any year now probably as an electricity meter first.

[12:13] < vmlemon_> X10 seems more popular for home automation

[12:13] < wyleu> X10, and I speak from personal experience, is un-reliable. It's a nice idea but not entirely reliable.

[12:14] < vmlemon_> That sounds fun - having to wait for 2 trivial devices (a lightbulb and switch) to handshake before working ;)

[12:14] < wyleu> yes, it's essential in a genuine home automation system.

[12:14] < vmlemon_> HomePlug looks like very interesting stuff, though

[12:15] < vmlemon_> Not a new idea mind you

[12:15] < wyleu> Mind you if I had anything to control quickly and temperorally I'duse X10

[12:15] < vmlemon_> (I remember power-line networking being available on Acorn machines years ago)

[12:15] < wyleu> Haven't looked much ( at a all) at HomePlug

[12:16] < wyleu> I'd like to see an X-10 equipped UPS...

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[12:59] < vmlemon_> Hi Davbo

[12:59] < Davbo> Hey vmlemon_

[13:00] < Davbo> http://twitter.com/kamaelian/statuses/1016358560 == shame

[13:00] < Davbo> s/shame/it's a shame

[13:00] < Davbo> but it does seem to be true

[13:00] < vmlemon_> Hah, "Last night I played a blank tape at full volume. The mime next door went nuts."

[13:01] < Davbo> hehe

[13:25] < wyleu> issus vm with his final public warning .... growl

[13:26] < vmlemon_> Hah

[13:26] < vmlemon_> Wasn't me, it was a quote from someone's Slashdot signature

[13:47] *** vmlemon_ wonders what the future will hold for Flickr, especially with Yahoo! slowly falling down the plughole and almost being purchased by Microsoft...

[14:12] < vmlemon_> Hah, http://www.flickr.com/photos/oddsock/61312230/

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[18:09] < vmlemon_> Hi Davbo

[18:10] < Davbo> Hey vmlemon_

[18:16] *** vmlemon_ wonders if the "Kamaelia Developers" Facebook group was ever used

[18:28] < Davbo> i doubt it

[18:28] < Davbo> what would you even do with it

[18:28] < Davbo> nice way to connect people

[18:28] < Davbo> but beyond that

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[19:28] < Davbo> MS-: last night I referred to the 0.7.0 planning page that's in the channel topic btw, i didn't just pick that URL out of the sky ;-)

[19:28] < Davbo> don't know if you want to change that URL

[19:29] < Davbo> in relation to "< MS-> For reference, http://www.kamaelia.org/ReleaseProgress070 is the place to look for things"

[19:37] *** Davbo can't think today

[19:41] < Lawouach> heya all

[19:42] < vmlemon_> Hi Lawouach

[19:42] < Lawouach> hey mate

[19:42] < Lawouach> I haven't accepted your FriendFeed invitation yet because I haven't used FriendFeed for month

[19:43] < vmlemon_> Aah, OK

[19:43] *** Davbo has no friends on friendfeed :-(

[19:43] *** vmlemon_ wonders if Davbo has an account

[19:43] < Davbo> I might make an imaginary one!

[19:43] < vmlemon_> Heh

[19:43] < Davbo> I made it the other week, just added all the "services" to it today

[19:44] < vmlemon_> You make imaginary friends on it?

[19:44] < Davbo> Yeah you can

[19:44] *** vmlemon_ has 2

[19:44] < Davbo> "You can keep track of your friends that don't use FriendFeed by creating "imaginary friends." For example, if you know your friend's Flickr username, you can create an imaginary friend with that Flickr account, and you will get notified every time your friend publishes a photo."

[19:45] < vmlemon_> I was just thinking - you could create a recursive imaginary friend that took the last imaginary friend's feed as a blog URL and so on ;)

[19:46] < Davbo> hook the blogs up with the friendfeeds and get your accounts banned! :P

[19:46] < vmlemon_> Hah

[19:46] *** vmlemon_ subscribed to Davbo!

[19:47] *** Davbo cheers

[19:48] *** Davbo just realised he's late!

[19:48] < Davbo> I should be on my way to the pub

[19:48] < vmlemon_> Could also create gridlock/effectively DoS a visitor to a Profilactic profile by adding it to itself as a blog (since it's bloated with JavaScript which causes it to hang at least Firefox)

[19:48] < Davbo> not reading Python's multiprocessing API

[19:48] < Davbo> :s I do some weird things.

[19:49] < Davbo> cya later chaps

[19:49] < vmlemon_> See you

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[22:01] < vmlemon_> kamlogbot: dance

[22:01] Reply: does the macarena

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[23:00] *** Ajmjm is now known as vmlemon_