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[07:21] < Lawouach> morning good people

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[08:40] *** tav waves

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[09:11] < MS-> morning

[09:12] < Lawouach> hi Michael

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[10:35] < Lawouach> Heisenbugs?

[10:41] < MS-> heisenbugs

[10:41] < MS-> Things that work whilst you're looking at them, and when you're testing them

[10:41] < MS-> As soon as you look away, they stop working

[10:42] < MS-> Look back and they work

[10:42] < MS-> look away, they don't

[10:42] < MS-> Run diagnostics, they work, even if you can see they're not

[10:42] < MS-> (it's a javascript meets CSS thing)

[10:42] < MS-> (Ironically, I don't get heisenbugs in kamaelia things, even though you'd expect them in concurrent systems)

[10:45] < MS-> literally all I've done is change locations :)

[10:45] < MS-> (my location that is)

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[16:18] < Davbo> vim configuration is totally essential

[16:18] < Davbo> my vim is so much more useful now

[16:18] *** Davbo wishes someone told him that

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[16:34] < vmlemon_> Hi

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[17:09] < MS-> evening

[17:10] < vmlemon_> Hi

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[17:46] < Davbo> Hey all

[17:47] < vmlemon_> Hi Davbo

[17:48] < vmlemon_> Did you resolve your HeisenBugs, MS-? ;)

[17:52] < vmlemon_> kamlogbot: poke

[17:52] Reply: Not the eye! Not the eye!

[18:07] < MS-> vmlemon_: Yep, I did

[18:07] < MS-> turned out to be an extraneous space in a CSS file breaking a javascript script

[18:07] < Davbo> Heisenbugs?

[18:07] < vmlemon_> Sounds fun

[18:08] < MS-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unusual_software_bug#Heisenbug

[18:08] < MS-> debugging showed it worked, when it clearly didn'y

[18:08] *** vmlemon_ was just thinking of the time when he was fighting with some buggy CSS on a Drupal site :(

[18:08] < Davbo> Hah cool

[18:09] < Davbo> I've had one of these before

[18:09] < vmlemon_> (Was trying to remove an annoying line underneath the bar at the top of the page, and spent 4 hours on IRC passing bits of CSS around on pastebins until it got fixed)

[18:09] < Davbo> didn't know they were called that hehe

[18:10] < MS-> It's a pun on the idea that observation of the thing changes the thing

[18:10] < MS-> which leads to the heisenberg uncertainty principle

[18:11] < Davbo> Yeah, like the double slit experiment presumably

[18:12] < MS-> I'd not come across that page before tbh

[18:13] < MS-> Which means I'd not heard of the idea of mandelbugs

[18:13] < MS-> I've certainly encountered projects with mandelbugs though

[18:16] < Davbo> Heh, most of the time when I look at other students source I think I'm looking what I now see is called a Schroedinbug ie. "How is this even working??"

[18:17] < MS-> If it was a scrhoedinbug, it would promptly stop working :)

[18:17] < MS-> I think you're more looking at wtfbug's

[18:18] < Davbo> heh

[18:18] < Davbo> true

[18:18] < Davbo> I'd be killing the cat so to speak ;-)

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[18:21] *** Davbo starts a svn co of kamaelia

[18:22] < Davbo> I'm gonna try and get some emergent behaviour out of the cat mouse game

[18:22] *** Davbo isn't even joking

[18:22] < MS-> :-)

[18:22] < MS-> Let us know when you have a sentient cat

[18:22] < MS-> We can make it an admit

[18:22] < MS-> admin

[18:23] < Davbo> hehe

[18:24] < vmlemon_> I have a sentient cat, although I doubt he'd want to be used for experiments ;)

[18:24] Reply: Hi, I'm a bot. I've been put here to answer faq's and log the channel.

[18:24] Reply: I've not really been configured yet, so I won't do much here yet :-)

[18:24] < vmlemon_> *living

[18:25] < vmlemon_> Surely they're self-aware

[18:25] < vmlemon_> kamlogbot: ecky

[18:25] Reply: Ptang!

[18:25] < MS-> omniscient then

[18:25] < Davbo> hehe vmlemon_ :)

[18:25] < MS-> I'd quite like to know the lottery numbers in advance

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[18:31] < Davbo> My new functional programming lecturer was plugging Python yesterday

[18:32] < Davbo> Saying how parts of functional programming is finally leaving academia and being used in industry and whatnot

[18:42] < Davbo> MS-: I had no idea how to tag in svn when I made that silly branch to mark the end of GSoC

[18:42] < Davbo> well, I still have no idea how to tag something in svn tbh

[18:45] < MS-> Davbo A tag in SVN is just a copy of the branch into /tags really

[18:45] < MS-> svn tagging is a bit lame IMO

[18:46] < Lawouach> It doesn't actually exist per se :)

[18:46] < MS-> "how parts of functional programming is finally leaving academia and being used in industry and whatnot" Probably not a good idea to mention that the functional programming-esque parts of python are considered warts

[18:46] < Lawouach> Though I've heard they had either worked on it in 1.5 or were working on it

[18:46] < Lawouach> can't remember

[18:47] < MS-> Lawouach: "doesn't actually exist per se" - well, quite

[18:47] < MS-> the closest you get is calling a copy a tag, which isn't the same thing really

[18:48] < Lawouach> Python is good at following paradigms loosely enough so that people can quickly use them whitout having to bend to a single one of them

[18:48] < MS-> true

[18:48] < Lawouach> OOP in Python is rather simplistic yet usefuly enough

[18:48] < MS-> except static typing :)

[18:48] < Lawouach> ah true

[18:48] < Lawouach> but we still have strong typing

[18:48] *** MS- nods

[18:49] < MS-> and you could probably fake static typing if you were desperate enough

[18:49] < Lawouach> In any case I agree that Python isn't well renowned for its functionnal paradigm support

[18:49] < MS-> Python 3.0rc1 (r30rc1:66499, Oct 5 2008, 22:54:36)

[18:49] < MS-> [GCC 4.2.1 (SUSE Linux)] on linux2

[18:49] < MS-> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

[18:49] < MS-> >>> map

[18:49] < MS-> < class 'map'>

[18:49] < MS-> vs

[18:49] < MS-> ~> python2.5

[18:49] < MS-> Python 2.5.1 (r251:54863, Jan 10 2008, 18:01:57)

[18:49] < MS-> [GCC 4.2.1 (SUSE Linux)] on linux2

[18:49] < MS-> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

[18:49] < MS-> >>> map

[18:50] < MS-> < built-in function map>

[18:50] < MS-> >>> reduce

[18:50] < MS-> Traceback (most recent call last):

[18:50] < MS-> File "< stdin>", line 1, in < module>

[18:50] < MS-> NameError: name 'reduce' is not defined

[18:50] < MS-> (in 3.0)

[18:50] < MS-> The closures in python are pretty awful as well - given how leaky they are

[18:50] < MS-> unlike proper functional closures

[18:50] < Davbo> I think he got all his information from python.org since it seemed quite familiar, he clearly doesn't know Python

[18:51] < MS-> That's fine. It's a case where misinformation will benefit the listener

[18:51] < MS-> If it encourages them to use python :)

[18:51] < vmlemon_> Singing the praises of something he's never used?

[18:52] < MS-> People will be complaining about things they've never listened to next

[18:52] < vmlemon_> Hah

[18:52] < Davbo> not really vmlemon_, just pointing out the functional idiom is in more commercial languages

[18:52] < Davbo> (in comparison to Haskell)

[18:53] < vmlemon_> Aah

[18:53] < MS-> I'd be very suprised if everyone is using pure functional languages 10 years from now

[18:53] < Davbo> Hah, as would I

[18:54] < MS-> but I wouldn't be surprised if reia (or something like it) was widely used

[18:54] < Davbo> We'd all need to get a whole lot smarter, if Haskell is anything to go by

[18:54] < MS-> Oh the other thing where python is like functional languages is that a name refers to a value rather than being a pointer to a location

[18:55] < MS-> Davbo: Whilst I'd like the world to get smarter, there is a whole world of VB, VB.net & PHP developers out there

[18:55] *** Davbo nods

[18:55] < MS-> let alone how much of a culture shift it is for both C & C++ developers

[18:55] < Davbo> I can't handle Haskell at the minute I must admit

[18:56] < Davbo> Didn't manage to finish my Huffman code implementation which was deadlined yesterday morning

[18:56] *** vmlemon_ is waiting for a .NET language called NotVery# ;)

[18:57] < Davbo> Couldn't generate a tree given all the frequencies etc,

[18:57] < MS-> SML is kinda similar to to Haskell, except strict evaluation rather than lazy

[18:57] *** MS- wrote a significant chunk of his third year project in SML

[18:57] < MS-> (few thousand lines)

[18:57] < Davbo> Ah cool

[18:57] < Davbo> I should have poked you to help me out ;-)

[18:58] *** Davbo had some help from #haskell anyway.

[18:58] < MS-> For that to be practical, I had to break out of pure functional approaches for expediency

[18:58] < MS-> Which IIRC you can't do in haskel

[18:58] *** Davbo wouldn't know

[18:58] < MS-> let alone things like:

[18:58] < MS-> if ioctl(self.fd, cdmx.DMX_GET_STC, &stc) == -1:

[18:58] < MS-> if ioctl(self.fd, cdmx.DMX_GET_EVENT, &e) == -1:

[19:03] < Davbo> this is what I ended up handing in yesterday http://davbo.pastebin.com/m3d87bda2

[19:03] < Davbo> really annoyed with it

[19:04] < Davbo> mostly because I have in my head the solution to get it to work but can't manage to manifest it into Haskell...if that makes sense.

[19:05] *** Davbo shrugs. Oh well.

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