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[11:09] < vmlemon_> Hi

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[14:19] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

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[14:50] < vmlemon_> Hmm, what was the BBC hackday/boot camp thing called that MS- went to, out of interest?

[14:52] < elvum> mashed?

[14:52] < vmlemon_> That's the one

[15:20] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[15:23] < vmlemon_> Hah,

[15:23] < vmlemon_> [16:36] < Jake> *ahem* Jokes have been suspended at the BBC

[15:23] < vmlemon_> [16:36] < Jake> Our house, our rules

[15:23] < vmlemon_> [16:36] < Jake> There'll be no fun here

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[16:11] < Lawouach> evening

[16:11] < vmlemon_> Hi Lawouach and ian_brasil

[16:11] < Lawouach> It's really cold here and I'm guessing it's worse up north :)

[16:12] < vmlemon_> Yup :(

[16:12] < vmlemon_> Our central heating's kaput too :|

[16:13] < ian_brasil> hey

[16:13] < Lawouach> ah damn

[16:14] < ian_brasil> here it is very warm :)..not to piss anyone off b.t.w

[16:14] < vmlemon_> Heh

[16:14] < Lawouach> :)

[16:14] *** vmlemon_ is watching the Backstage IRC channels

[16:15] < vmlemon_> They seem bemused at having a non-BBC person on the network at the moment

[16:15] < Lawouach> ?

[16:18] < vmlemon_> http://paster.dazjorz.com/?p=3602

[16:20] < Lawouach> weird

[16:20] < Lawouach> let's see

[16:24] < Lawouach> interesting

[16:24] < vmlemon_> [Thu Oct 30 2008] [16:34:02] < elson> some joe public has stumbled into #glow, it's freakin me out

[16:24] < vmlemon_> [Thu Oct 30 2008] [16:34:38] < iaint> don't worry, he's here too

[16:25] < vmlemon_> Back in a mo

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[16:40] *** Lawouach might upgrade to Ubuntu 8.10

[16:41] < Lawouach> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7abh3/ubuntu_810_is_officially_here/c063nuc

[17:41] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[17:41] < MS-> evening

[17:41] < vmlemon_> Hi MS-

[17:41] < MS-> will be idling on channel but not around much

[17:41] < MS-> still a bit fluey

[17:42] < elvum> vmlemon_: I might have meant beebcamp earlier

[17:43] *** elvum waves to MS-

[17:43] < vmlemon_> Aah

[17:43] < vmlemon_> Was definitely Mashed

[17:43] < MS-> Hiya steve

[17:43] < MS-> beebcamp?

[17:43] < vmlemon_> (Thanks for reminding me though)

[17:43] *** MS- looks at log

[17:44] < MS-> mashed

[17:47] < elvum> MS-: there was some internal barcamp-like thing which I didn't know about until earlier today

[17:47] *** elvum still doesn't know about it, actually

[17:50] < MS-> Ah I see

[17:51] < MS-> Well, that's open space for you.

[17:53] < elvum> you mean, not only is there no agenda, but there's no set meeting time or place? :-)

[17:54] *** elvum ponders upgrading an ubuntu machine to 8.10

[17:54] < MS-> elvum: Well, you're supposed to send out an invite

[17:55] < MS-> and one of the tenets is "who ever comes are the right people" and another "what ever happens is the only thing that could've"

[17:55] *** vmlemon_ wonders if Fedora 10 is worth a whorl, or if 9 would be better

[17:55] < vmlemon_> *whirl

[17:55] < MS-> and if the view is "we wanted more people" then there should be a session "how do we get more people"

[17:56] < vmlemon_> Haha, "Why is Microsoft creating two Windows Server operating systems? Isn’t this confusing for customers?"

[17:56] < vmlemon_> (From the "Windows Azure" FAQ)

[17:58] *** vmlemon_ wonders why a very similar question isn't in the FAQs for Windows Vista

[18:01] < Lawouach> hmm

[18:01] < Lawouach> so Blu-Ray seems as doom as HD-DVD then

[18:01] < MS-> ?

[18:03] < Lawouach> http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=365&tag=nl.e550 < -- just someone's POV but probably quite realistic

[18:03] < MS-> I don't have the heart to tell the #twiki_fork crowd "I told you so" :)

[18:03] < elvum> who owned the copyrights?

[18:03] < MS-> elvum: everyone

[18:03] < elvum> that's something, I guess

[18:04] < vmlemon_> Why the hell did they decide to fork it, out of interest?

[18:04] < vmlemon_> (Other than "they threw out the developers" or something like that)

[18:04] < Lawouach> vmlemon_ http://blog.wikiring.com/Blog/BlogEntry28

[18:04] < MS-> History: Twiki was forked from Joswiki in '98

[18:05] < MS-> I was user #10 or so when it was hosted on starship.python.net

[18:05] < MS-> (before shifting to sourceforge and before shifting off sf)

[18:05] < vmlemon_> These are the dolts that locked you out and trashed your contributions?

[18:05] < MS-> Forked by Pth.

[18:05] < vmlemon_> (To put it bluntly)

[18:05] < MS-> vmlemon_: spot on, yes

[18:06] < MS-> That led to me forking and creating o'wiki which I killed off after realising how awful the codebase was (no saving graces, restarting from scratch made sense)

[18:06] < MS-> Pth was made redundant by Wind River, and looked around to "Monetise" twiki

[18:06] < MS-> Formed twiki.net

[18:07] < MS-> Who sell vmware appliances with twiki preinstalled

[18:07] < MS-> Tension grew over the next year

[18:07] < vmlemon_> Ugh

[18:07] < MS-> Apparently there was a meeting last month where Pth wanted to be made BDFL - he'd been calling himself that for a while - and was *rejected* by the developer community

[18:08] < MS-> Also, Pth trademarked TWiki, and Twiki.net shares the trademark. Twiki.net started taking credit for work of the other developers who over the past few years have done most of the work

[18:08] < MS-> leading to more bad blood

[18:09] < MS-> However, they agreed to discuss it with the developers and (last month) agreed a new governance model

[18:09] < MS-> Then on monday, Pth locked everyone out and forced them to agree to his new terms

[18:09] < MS-> "my way or the highway"

[18:09] < MS-> So the core developers have forked

[18:10] < MS-> 3 or 4 years later than they should've done IMO

[18:10] < vmlemon_> Totally Wasted Infrastructure, Kills Interest

[18:11] < MS-> Oh that's awesome

[18:12] < MS-> Anyway, they've forked because it's the only logical thing to do.

[18:12] < MS-> You'll note that most of the way that Kamaelia is set up/managed, it's specifically designed to avoid making the mistakes twiki made

[18:13] < MS-> The huge downside of this at present is the website, and that needs resolving

[18:13] < MS-> (which *is* single point of failure at present)

[18:17] < Lawouach> in which way?

[18:19] < MS-> Well, at present its not properly a wiki, and the contents isn't checked into SVN

[18:19] < MS-> which are probably the two largest issues

[18:20] < MS-> (checked into a seperate SVN (or similar) server perhaps )

[18:20] < Lawouach> I see

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[18:34] < vmlemon_> kamlogbot: dance

[18:34] Reply: does the macarena

[18:35] *** MS- is now known as ms-afk

[18:35] *** ms-afk wanders off again

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[18:36] < vmlemon_> Hi Davbo

[18:36] < Davbo> Hey all

[19:23] < vmlemon_> Heh, nice to see ex-TWiki folks talking about exploiting defective/insecure plugins on the old site ;)

[19:23] < vmlemon_> Very classy

[19:23] < vmlemon_> (Just been reading the TWiki-Fork logs)

[19:57] < elvum> hmm, kde4 bling

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[20:46] < Davbo> Can anyone recommend a bit of software for doing diagrams? also: hi all. :-)

[20:47] < Davbo> I wonder if open office has any decent diagram stuffs

[20:48] < mhrd-home> on windows, few things beat visio

[20:48] < mhrd-home> linux: depends on your taste: some people like dia, inkscape, xaralx

[20:49] *** Davbo could reboot and use visio

[20:49] < mhrd-home> you could even use graphviz in some circumstances

[20:49] *** elvum quite likes inkscape - possibly because it's similar to coreldraw

[20:51] < Davbo> looks like open office draw has all the shapes i need, a smiley face will do for "actor" :-)

[20:53] < mhrd-home> ':-O ... an actor *has* to be a stick man! :-)

[20:53] < mhrd-home> http://smartuml.sourceforge.net/pics/UseCaseDiagram.jpg

[20:55] < Davbo> I've got Umbrella but it's a bit overkill for what i need

[20:56] < Davbo> although that's a really nice app if you're sticking to UML

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[21:08] *** ms-afk watching newsnight

[21:08] < ms-afk> why are people going on about brand & ross quite so much?

[21:09] < ms-afk> Everyone knows they're offensive in their own ways

[21:09] < Davbo> Yeah, it's really dragging on

[21:10] < mhrd-home> blood smelt

[21:11] < ms-afk> I'm not really sure why it blew up as large as it did really. After all, originally it was just 2 complaints, then mobbed

[21:11] < Davbo> After it appeared in the Daily Mail ms-afk

[21:12] *** Davbo thinks they should be allowed to say what they want

[21:12] *** Davbo also understands that would never happen :-)

[21:12] < ms-afk> Oh, that Mail.

[21:12] < ms-afk> the Mail even

[21:12] < ms-afk> No, that's why you have editorial control

[21:12] < ms-afk> Otherwise you open yourself up to libel and slander otherwise

[21:12] < ms-afk> aside from anything else

[21:12] < elvum> or not, as the case may be

[21:13] < mhrd-home> jumping on the condemnation/indignation bandwagon is fashionable these days :-)

[21:13] *** ms-afk nods

[21:13] < elvum> outrage is the new cool

[21:14] *** mhrd-home goes for ubuntu 8.04 -> 8.10 reboot (cya soon hopefully!)

[21:14] *** Davbo sighs at Daily Mail readers.

[21:14] < Davbo> good luck mhrd-home :-)

[21:15] < ms-afk> mhrd-home: flipside of web 2.0 - boredom of the mob

[21:15] < ms-afk> You sure it was the mail? Thought it was one of the others...

[21:15] < Davbo> Yeah, it was on the news

[21:15] *** ms-afk nods - found a time line - mail on sunday

[21:16] < Davbo> 10,000 complaints day after it was in the Mail

[21:16] < Davbo> Ah, sorry. Well, same difference :)

[21:17] < elvum> ~0.5% of their readership per day then

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[21:19] < Davbo> The Mail is clearly only involved so they can print pictures of Andrew Sachs' grand-daughter who is a model or something

[21:19] < Davbo> pathetic really

[21:19] < elvum> or something

[21:20] < elvum> nah, it *was* a major breach of editorial guidelines

[21:20] < Davbo> http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=Georgina%20Baillie look at the URL's

[21:21] < Davbo> Oh I do agree elvum, but 1) I'm sick of hearing about it and 2) I don't particularly agree with the editorial guidelines

[21:21] < ms-afk> elvum: Agreed. If it'd been live, then I can understand it, but it wasn't and was specifcially editted

[21:22] < elvum> Davbo: your image-search point is a good one :-)

[21:22] < ms-afk> Davbo: You think it's OK to publically degrade someone?

[21:22] < ms-afk> rhetorical, because I know you'd say no :)

[21:23] *** Davbo goes listen to The Smiths, sit on a bean bag and switch his lava lamp on ;-)

[21:23] < ms-afk> heh

[21:25] *** ms-afk wanders off likewise

[23:39] *** mhrd-home has parted #kamaelia