[05:12] < Rigolo> NITo and NITa both work also for DVB-C

[07:28] *** vmlemon has joined #kamaelia

[08:00] < mhrd> Rigolo: cool - thanks for testing that :)

[08:39] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[08:48] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[08:50] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[09:11] *** ian_brasil has joined #kamaelia

[09:23] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[09:59] < Lawouach> morning all

[09:59] < vmlemon_> Hi

[10:01] < MS-> morning

[10:54] *** MS- is doesd up on lempis today

[10:57] < vmlemon_> Got a cold?

[10:57] < mhrd> aww

[11:17] *** Suv123 has joined #kamaelia

[11:52] *** Suv123__ has joined #kamaelia

[14:13] *** mhrd has joined #kamaelia

[15:50] < MS-> mhrd: How about this: http://www.kamaelia.org/Components/pydoc/Kamaelia.Device.DVB.Parse.ParseNetworkInformationTable.html?...

[15:51] *** mhrd looks

[15:51] < mhrd> ooh, its wider!

[15:51] < MS-> Yep.

[15:52] < MS-> Changed the logic for templates to include this@

[15:52] < mhrd> and I was just starting to get used to having the big margins :-) ... probably more convenient like this tho

[15:52] < MS-> this:

[15:52] < MS-> #

[15:52] < MS-> try:

[15:52] < MS-> f = open("templates/%s/%s.tmpl%s"% (stem,mode,subtype) )

[15:52] < MS-> Which allows per directory templates

[15:52] < MS-> in addition to (existing) per page templates

[15:52] < mhrd> ah

[15:52] < MS-> try:

[15:52] < MS-> # First of all, try page specific template

[15:52] < MS-> f = open("templates/%s.%s.tmpl%s"% (context["pagename"],mode,subtype) )

[15:53] < MS-> So MiniAxon has the same thing

[15:54] < mhrd> the flow around the "Warning" callout box is a bit wierd now (3/4 way down)

[15:54] *** mhrd will ponder possible fixes

[15:54] < Lawouach> evening

[15:54] < MS-> mhrd: It matches where it used to be

[15:54] < MS-> Lawouach: evening

[15:55] < MS-> Though it's formatting could be improved :)

[15:55] < Lawouach> how are things?

[15:55] < mhrd> MS- : so it does, my bad :)

[15:56] < mhrd> looks like there are similar overflow problems with < h4> headings (component names) ... though I'm less sure how to fix those

[15:56] < mhrd> ( "Kamaelia.Device.DVB.Parse.ParseNetworkInformationTable.ParseNetworkInf ..." )

[15:56] < MS-> mhrd: Also, per directory release notes mean that things like this page are unchanged: http://www.kamaelia.org/ReleaseProgress070

[15:56] < MS-> and same for this: http://www.kamaelia.org/About

[15:56] < MS-> Yeah, saw that

[15:56] < mhrd> MS- : cool

[15:56] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[15:56] < MS-> Lawouach: I'm fluey

[15:57] < Lawouach> That bites

[15:58] < vmlemon_> Hi

[15:58] < vmlemon_> Hah, http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/newsbeat/hi/technology/newsid_7693000/7693050.stm

[15:58] < vmlemon_> and http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/entertainment/7688705.stm

[16:00] < mhrd> might propose fixing the < h4> thing in the doc generation - we already kinda separate the path from the leafname ... so could simply strip off the leafname from the path, and change the compnoent/prefab name already appears on the next line anyway. Would also reduce the size of the path, so its the smaller of the two (reverse of now)

[16:00] < mhrd> (latter bit about font sizes would be a css thing, rather than doc generation)

[16:00] < mhrd> vmlemon_ + Lawouach : hi

[16:00] < MS-> Well, the current form allows for copy and paste, which is handy...

[16:01] < mhrd> good point :)

[16:01] < vmlemon_> Hi mhrd

[16:01] < mhrd> hmm, could simply shrink the font size of h4 then :)

[16:05] < MS-> Ahh, I see - they're H1's

[16:05] < MS-> Not h4s

[16:06] < mhrd> oh, so they are!

[16:06] < MS-> That'll need a rethink :)

[16:06] < mhrd> yep :)

[16:10] < aa_> 3 orders in a day! that deserv es a night off hacking on open source

[16:14] < vmlemon_> Heh

[16:15] < vmlemon_> BBC's fabulous SlowOrder-? ;)

[16:52] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[17:08] < Rigolo> good evening

[17:09] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[17:09] < Rigolo> what DVB table contains the Frequency of the transport streams?

[17:10] < Rigolo> I thought that was in the NITa or NITo tables .. but I do not see them there ..

[17:10] < Rigolo> at least .. not in the parsed and pretty NIT tables

[17:11] *** mhrd looks at spec documents :-)

[17:11] < Rigolo> thanks ..

[17:12] < Rigolo> My provider gives you a base frequency and a network ID. on their supported STB's they are able to find all other Transport streams within that network

[17:12] < mhrd> EN 300 468 says its in the Cable Delivery Descriptor. That descriptor's tag is 0x44.

[17:12] < mhrd> If it appears anywhere it'll be in the NIT.

[17:12] < mhrd> Question is whether we wrote a parser for that descriptor! I'll check ...

[17:12] < vmlemon_> Just walk the NIT and you'll find it

[17:13] < vmlemon_> providing that you have enough data

[17:13] < vmlemon_> (and are willing to wade through 100MB-*GB of raw data to find it)

[17:14] < Rigolo> mmm cable delivery descriptor .. looks like something that might not been implemented in the parsers :-)

[17:14] < mhrd> heh, the parser is a stub: http://code.google.com/p/kamaelia/source/browse/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Kamaelia/Support/DVB/Descriptors.py#738

[17:14] < mhrd> (we didn't write it)

[17:14] < mhrd> see if you can see that descriptor listed in the output for the NITa or NITo

[17:15] < Rigolo> in the raw tables .. so not the pretty one?

[17:15] < vmlemon_> VirgiNTeLewest Media?

[17:15] < mhrd> umm, not sure :)

[17:15] < Rigolo> nope .. Ziggo .. in .nl

[17:15] < mhrd> either I think

[17:17] < Rigolo> okee ... I will look later one ... I'm in the train right now ... (long live HSDPA cards .. (And a boss who pays the bill))

[17:20] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[17:22] < vmlemon_> kamlogbot: dance

[17:22] Reply: does the macarena

[20:03] *** Rigolo has joined #kamaelia

[20:03] < Rigolo> good evening ....

[20:04] *** mhrd-home has joined #kamaelia

[20:04] < Rigolo> goog evening matt

[20:05] < mhrd-home> hi Rigolo, did you identify if that descriptor was present in your NITa/NITo ?

[20:05] < Rigolo> well ... I found this ...

[20:05] < Rigolo> http://rigolo.googlepages.com/NIT-Ziggo.txt

[20:05] < Rigolo> that is the NITo and NITa after prettyfy

[20:05] < mhrd-home> yep, its there:

[20:05] < mhrd-home> """

[20:05] < mhrd-home> Descriptor 0x44 : satellite_delivery_system

[20:05] < mhrd-home> contents : '\x03\x13\x00\x00\xff\xf2\x03\x00hu\x0f'

[20:05] < mhrd-home> """

[20:05] < Rigolo> exactly ...

[20:05] < mhrd-home> ahem - typo in the Descriptors.py :-)

[20:06] < Rigolo> but I use dvb-c :-)

[20:06] < mhrd-home> should say "cable_delivery_system"

[20:06] < Rigolo> and then what should I do with that code then?

[20:06] < Rigolo> if that HEX for the frequency?

[20:07] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[20:07] < mhrd-home> its the hex for the descriptor - it contains the freq and other tuning parameters ...

[20:08] < mhrd-home> I'm starting a branch into which I'll put a fixed Descriptors.py in a little while

[20:08] < Rigolo> okee .. and I guess in the dvb spec document it tells me what it really means?

[20:08] < mhrd-home> ...you'd be able to test it?

[20:08] < mhrd-home> ETSI EN 300 468 again :-) yeah

[20:08] < Rigolo> Yes ...

[20:09] < Rigolo> depends when you can have that branch up ...

[20:09] < vmlemon_> Hi

[20:09] < vmlemon_> Hmm, anyone know if DVB-H hardware exists?

[20:09] Reply: Hm?

[20:09] < vmlemon_> (Or Linux-compatible DVB-*2 stuff, for that matter)

[20:09] < mhrd-home> I'm thinking, if I make good progress ... maybe 1/2 hour if there are no interruptions ;-)

[20:09] < Rigolo> making less then 6 hour nights is getting harder with each year :-)

[20:09] < Rigolo> okee

[20:09] < Rigolo> vmlemon_: there are dvb-s2 cards out there ...

[20:10] < vmlemon_> Ugh, the sunset-at-4pm thing's really getting to me now

[20:10] < mhrd-home> Nokia N96 does DVB-H

[20:10] < Rigolo> and dvb-h hardware is what you get in a nokia N96

[20:10] < Rigolo> right ..

[20:11] < vmlemon_> I doubt there'd be PCI or USB devices supporting it though

[20:11] *** vmlemon_ Googles

[20:11] < Rigolo> vmlemon_: but for the dvb-*2 hardware you also need the new S2API v4l drivers

[20:11] < Rigolo> have a look at linuxtv.org

[20:11] < Rigolo> and then at supported hardware

[20:11] < vmlemon_> Thanks

[20:12] < Rigolo> PCI support for dvb-h might be difficult yes

[20:12] *** vmlemon_ wonders if the Freesat folks are going to lift the lid on their "enhancements"/provide a publicly available spec soon

[20:13] < Rigolo> but you can always get a USRP and use GNU Radio to receive the signals :-)

[20:13] < vmlemon_> Ooh, http://www.everythingusb.com/huawei-e510-hsdpa-tv-pebble-14404.html

[20:13] < vmlemon_> Not sure if it works outside of Korea, but it's something

[20:13] *** Lawouach has joined #kamaelia

[20:14] < Rigolo> if it really is dvb-h via usb

[20:14] < Rigolo> why use dvb-h .. svb-t gives better signal anyway

[20:14] *** aa_ has joined #kamaelia

[20:14] < Rigolo> svb-t = dvb-t ofcourse

[20:14] < vmlemon_> I'll be amazed, although I presume that each country with a DVB-H network uses different frequencies, and not all of them will be compatible

[20:15] < vmlemon_> Yes, it's supposed to be an open standard and all that jazz

[20:15] < Rigolo> mhrd-home: when you are making changes ... are those additional "print" statments that MS- put in the code already removed from trunk?

[20:16] < Rigolo> vmlemon_: I think the frequency range for DVB-H is global .. because they are in the normal analog TV bands anyway

[20:16] < Rigolo> just as DVB-T

[20:16] < vmlemon_> Aah

[20:16] < vmlemon_> OK

[20:16] *** vmlemon_ is only familiar with the DVB-T side of it

[20:17] < Rigolo> infact .. our DVB-T company (KPN) is holding back on mre channels/transports for DVB-T because it is rolling out DVB-H

[20:17] < vmlemon_> Although they're interesting specifications and technologies, in my view

[20:17] < Rigolo> and they are the only company that have a license to use DVB-T and DVB-H

[20:18] < Rigolo> (and they are also our old ex government phone company .. talking about too much in one hand)

[20:18] < Rigolo> can you imagine BT having the DVB-T license ..

[20:18] < vmlemon_> You're Dutch, I take it?

[20:18] < Rigolo> yes

[20:18] *** aa_ has joined #kamaelia

[20:18] *** aa__ has joined #kamaelia

[20:18] < vmlemon_> That'd be fun

[20:19] < vmlemon_> They already only just manage to run the phone network, and they're struggling to run a national broadband data network

[20:19] < vmlemon_> (excluding crap like Phorm and what have you)

[20:19] < mhrd-home> Rigolo: can you give me an example of you specifying tuning parameters in kamaelia?

[20:19] < Rigolo> vmlemon_: but if you really like to play with signals for where there is no real linux supported hardware ... you can really use the GNU radio Software Defined Radio stuff

[20:20] < Rigolo> feparams = { "inversion" : dvb3.frontend.INVERSION_AUTO, "symbol_rate" : 6875000, "fec_inner" : dvb3.frontend.FEC_AUTO, "modulation" :dvb3.frontend.QAM_64,

[20:20] < vmlemon_> I've had a look at the software, which seems nifty, although I assume that it requires Special Hardware...

[20:20] < Rigolo> }

[20:20] < vmlemon_> (Not cheap, either)

[20:20] < Rigolo> yes .. the MSRP ...

[20:21] < Rigolo> mhrd-home: and frequency 618Mhz for the transport

[20:21] < vmlemon_> The RFID and ZigBee stuff looks interesting

[20:21] < mhrd-home> you don't specify the outer_fec ?

[20:21] < Rigolo> nope .. not used in DVB-C

[20:22] < Rigolo> have a look at frontend.pyx .. there you can find the 3 different settings for the FE parameters

[20:22] < mhrd-home> yep - am doing so ... just wanted to check :-)

[20:22] < vmlemon_> http://www.gnuradio.org/trac/wiki/USRP I take it?

[20:24] < Rigolo> vmlemon_: yes .. that one

[20:24] *** vmlemon_ wonders what the upper and lower frequency limits are on it, if any...

[20:24] < Rigolo> it connects via USB ... and you can get extensionboards for it

[20:24] < Rigolo> depends on that extension board

[20:24] < vmlemon_> Cool

[20:24] < Rigolo> I think you can get a range of 20 Mhz or so

[20:25] < Rigolo> they were able to capture the COMPLETE FM band ..

[20:25] < vmlemon_> Ooh

[20:25] < Rigolo> and then later on splitout the different stations

[20:25] < Rigolo> all in software

[20:25] *** vmlemon_ thinks trying to capture all of 2.4GHz might be interesting

[20:25] < Rigolo> they started out with the tuners from cablemodems

[20:25] < vmlemon_> (in local vicinity, of course)

[20:26] < vmlemon_> Probably would be hell to figure out modulations and things, though

[20:27] < Rigolo> well ... all that stuff is done in software ofcourse ..

[20:27] < vmlemon_> Unless it can also detect that stuff

[20:28] < Rigolo> did you have a look at www.ettus.com .. they build the hardware ...

[20:28] < vmlemon_> Looking at the wiki at the moment

[20:28] < Rigolo> vmlemon_: no idea ... I know the basics ... not the fine details

[20:28] < vmlemon_> Waiting for the Ettus link to load

[20:28] < vmlemon_> OK

[20:29] < vmlemon_> Hmm, "Daughterboards are available from DC to 2.9 GHz at this time."

[20:29] < vmlemon_> Answers that question then

[20:29] < Rigolo> yes ... but not the total band I think ...

[20:29] < Rigolo> no idea what the max bandwith is ...

[20:29] < vmlemon_> Meh

[20:30] < Rigolo> They were doing something with HD channels and software ... and they can be quite large bandwith wise

[20:33] < vmlemon_> Looks like they have boards for most things, and some also have crossover presumably

[20:33] < Rigolo> crossover?

[20:34] < vmlemon_> (e.g. The "800 MHz to 2.4 GHz receiver" presumably also has people who want 2.4GHz support covered, as does the "2.3-2.9 GHz transceiver (including ISM band)")

[20:34] < vmlemon_> *presumably has

[20:35] < Rigolo> then I think it comes down to price ... or capabilities ...

[20:35] < vmlemon_> Very true

[20:35] < vmlemon_> Not all of the boards transmit either

[20:35] < Rigolo> transceiver means you can also broadcast on that frequency

[20:35] < vmlemon_> Yup

[20:35] < Rigolo> exactly

[20:36] < Rigolo> so if you want to experiment with your own local DVB-T station .... :-)

[20:36] < vmlemon_> Of course, there's usually a legal or technical reason for that

[20:37] < vmlemon_> (i.e. I could trample on 96.6MHz if I wanted, so that no-one else in the immediate area could listen to the FM radio station on that frequency)

[20:38] < Rigolo> well .. then you start talking about broadcast power ..and I thing that is measured in mW .. so blowing away radio 1 might be difficult :-)

[20:38] < Rigolo> did you ever have a look at this btw: http://bellard.org/dvbt/

[20:38] < Rigolo> much cheaper way to broadcast dvb-t I think

[20:39] < Rigolo> although the sourcecode is still not open :-)

[20:40] < vmlemon_> Cantennas! ;)

[20:41] < vmlemon_> (Never used one, but they sound like fun to play with)

[20:41] < vmlemon_> Looking now

[20:42] < vmlemon_> Presumably, you could substitute an antenna for a cable, and connect it into another device (e.g. two Wi-Fi adapters), since the air is pretty much used as a Big Cable (without going into precise technical details)...

[20:43] < Rigolo> that is exactly what he did ... but the "broadcasting antenna" was his video card :-)

[20:44] < vmlemon_> Nifty

[20:44] < vmlemon_> Tempest for Elisa looked interesting too

[20:44] < vmlemon_> although I could never get it to compile

[20:45] < vmlemon_> (Essentially MW/AM transmission using patterns displayed on a monitor, and receiving the excess radiation)

[20:45] < vmlemon_> with a standard radio receiver

[20:45] < Rigolo> I bet we could use Kamaelia to make something similair ... Kamaelia can do almost anything I feel :-

[20:47] < mhrd-home> Rigolo: interesting ... in the example you posted ... service with transport stream ID 1 is reporting outer_fec of RS(204/188)

[20:48] < vmlemon_> I was using it a while ago to separate out parts of DVB-T broadcasts to get to the Fun Stuff® (i.e. MHEG-5 carousels, DVB subtitles, and individual tables (e.g. EIT and NIT))

[20:49] < vmlemon_> Also resulted in me hacking up a component for appending data to an existing file (as opposed to replacing the contents between runs), which I submitted for inclusion

[20:50] < vmlemon_> (Should hopefully be in for the next release, if the deluge of mail I have from the Kamaelia Google Group is anything to go by) ;)

[20:51] < Rigolo> mhrd-home: in my ziggo-NIT?

[20:51] < mhrd-home> yep

[20:51] < vmlemon_> Hah, "Your monitor will of course not be able to display anything because the timings are far from correct VESA timings. Unless you are using a very old monitor, there is no chance you can destroy it..."

[20:52] < mhrd-home> could be malformed descriptors, or non standard extensions ... I've just been doule checking my interpretation of the spec, and I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong

[20:52] < Rigolo> mhrd-home: so in one of the first lines you mean ?? when you decode that descriptor ...

[20:52] < Rigolo> this string: Descriptor 0x44 : satellite_delivery_system contents : '\x03\x13\x00\x00\xff\xf2\x03\x00hu\x0f'

[20:53] < mhrd-home> yep

[20:53] < mhrd-home> currently decoding as: {'params': {'inversion': 2, 'modulation': 3, 'symbol_rate': 6875000, 'fec_outer': 'RS(204/188)', 'fec_inner': 0, 'frequency': 313000000}, 'type': 'cable_delivery_system'}

[20:54] < Rigolo> mmm when you use the scan tool from dvb-utils it converts to AUTO i think .. or NONE

[20:55] < Rigolo> that first line is for other network ID 9001 .. can you have a look at network ID 9003 (that is my network)

[20:55] < Rigolo> not sure if I have a transport stream on 313Mhz

[20:56] < mhrd-home> network 9003 : {'params': {'inversion': 2, 'modulation': 3, 'symbol_rate': 6875000, 'fec_outer': 'RS(204/188)', 'fec_inner': 0, 'frequency': 313000000}, 'type': 'cable_delivery_system'}

[20:57] < Rigolo> same ...

[20:57] < Rigolo> when i build my channesl.conf with scan ... I get this records for 313Mhz transport stream

[20:58] < Rigolo> ARD:313000000:INVERSION_AUTO:6875000:FEC_NONE:QAM_64:101:102:1001

[20:58] < Rigolo> Kabel 1:313000000:INVERSION_AUTO:6875000:FEC_NONE:QAM_64:767:768:1004

[20:58] < Rigolo> NDR:313000000:INVERSION_AUTO:6875000:FEC_NONE:QAM_64:2401:2402:1005

[20:58] < Rigolo> RTL Television:313000000:INVERSION_AUTO:6875000:FEC_NONE:QAM_64:163:104:1006

[20:58] < Rigolo> Pro Sieben:313000000:INVERSION_AUTO:6875000:FEC_NONE:QAM_64:511:512:1007

[20:58] < Rigolo> Sat.1:313000000:INVERSION_AUTO:6875000:FEC_NONE:QAM_64:255:256:1008

[20:58] < Rigolo> WDR:313000000:INVERSION_AUTO:6875000:FEC_NONE:QAM_64:37:602:1009

[20:58] < Rigolo> SWF Fernsehen:313000000:INVERSION_AUTO:6875000:FEC_NONE:QAM_64:3101:3102:1010

[20:58] < Rigolo> maybe only fec_inner is used .. and fec_outer has some other code that is not used??

[20:59] < mhrd-home> yep, it matches the inner FEC. The code they're using for th eouter FEC is marked in the spec as "undefined"

[20:59] < mhrd-home> in the interests of compatilibty, i'll implement as FEC_NONE :-)

[21:00] < Rigolo> I think you can get the other values from python-dvb3 ... from cfrontend.pyx or frontend.pyx if I am not mistaken

[21:00] < Rigolo> if I google for that code I get this page ...

[21:01] < Rigolo> http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fec_coding.htm

[21:01] < Rigolo> so it must mean something :-)

[21:01] < mhrd-home> "other values"?

[21:02] < Rigolo> RS stands for Reed-Solomon

[21:02] < mhrd-home> yep - I know ... RS204/188 is used by DVB-T

[21:02] < mhrd-home> :)

[21:03] < Rigolo> okee ...

[21:03] < mhrd-home> I'm just suprised to see it on a cable system I guess :)

[21:03] < Rigolo> me too .. maybe it was just left in there ..

[21:03] < mhrd-home> the inner-fec being marked in the spec as 'undefined' is the one that concerns me more

[21:04] < Rigolo> mmm maybe I should ask a person on a forum that I visit to also have a look at Kamaelia

[21:05] < Rigolo> I know he has written some Java code him self to analyse transportstream captures of dutch dvb-c networks

[21:05] < Rigolo> maybe he can shed some light on this ...

[21:05] < Rigolo> he is also noticeing problems in some EIT informations .. or other tables that have "weird" values

[21:06] < mhrd-home> ok, new descriptor code checked in

[21:06] < vmlemon_> Out of interest, is VBI-based Teletext available on the Dutch DVB-C network?

[21:06] < Rigolo> in trunk? or in your own branche

[21:06] < Rigolo> I think so ...

[21:06] < mhrd-home> checkout the branch private_MH_EnhancementsForDVB-C

[21:06] < vmlemon_> I know we don't have it on DVB-T here

[21:06] < Rigolo> okee .. and what svn co command is that ?

[21:06] < vmlemon_> although BSkyB implement it on certain DVB-S channels

[21:07] < mhrd-home> svn checkout http://kamaelia.googlecode.com/svn/private_MH_EnhancementsForDVB-C < directory-you-want-to-put-it-in>

[21:07] < Rigolo> you should be able to find those teletext PID's then in that table that I posted

[21:08] < vmlemon_> Which table?

[21:08] < Rigolo> oke .. and can I just install that branch over my current trunk installation

[21:08] < Rigolo> that NIT-Ziggo.txt file

[21:08] < mhrd-home> yep ... I made it not long ago, so should include all the fixes MS- did yesterday

[21:08] < Rigolo> mmm

[21:08] < vmlemon_> (Probably missed it, since I only came at 21:34GMT)

[21:08] < Rigolo> not really I just realised

[21:08] *** vmlemon_ looks on his shell account client's scrollback

[21:09] < Rigolo> thougth that the PID's where also in the NIT .. but they are not ofcourse ..

[21:09] < Rigolo> (still trying to get my head around the relation between all DVB Tables

[21:09] < mhrd-home> it is a bit messy :-)

[21:10] < mhrd-home> Rigolo: http://www.kamaelia.org/Cookbook/DVB/RecordNamedChannel and http://www.kamaelia.org/Cookbook/DVB/PersonalVideoRecorder may give you an idea of how the table relate together

[21:10] < Rigolo> mhrd-home: is your URL correct for the svn co?

[21:10] < mhrd-home> The intro sections of EN 300 468 aren't too horrendous to read either

[21:11] < mhrd-home> oops

[21:11] < mhrd-home> svn checkout http://kamaelia.googlecode.com/svn/brances/private_MH_EnhancementsForDVB-C < directory-you-want-to-put-it-in>

[21:11] < Rigolo> okee ... I was reading RecordNamedChannel on the train this morning

[21:11] < mhrd-home> svn checkout http://kamaelia.googlecode.com/svn/branches/private_MH_EnhancementsForDVB-C < directory-you-want-to-put-it-in>

[21:11] < mhrd-home> gah :-)

[21:12] < vmlemon_> You could build your own Kamaelia Macro ;)

[21:12] < Rigolo> again ... sure that is complete?

[21:12] < mhrd-home> Rigolo: I think so now .. apologies for typos

[21:13] < Rigolo> I think i forgot a / at the end ....

[21:14] < Rigolo> should I limit it to the Kamaelia subdir only ... or get Axon etc also ?

[21:14] < mhrd-home> you can just take kamaelia

[21:14] < Rigolo> (and do I need to reinstall that too?)

[21:14] < mhrd-home> just Kamaelia

[21:14] < MS-> Oh hello

[21:14] < mhrd-home> I've only changed one file: kamaelia/kamaelia/Support/DVB/Descriptors.py

[21:16] *** MS- notices the read back is pretty long and keeps quiet :)

[21:16] < mhrd-home> MS- : hi

[21:16] < Rigolo> mmm still gives me: svn: URL 'http://kamaelia.googlecode.com/svn/private_MH_EnhancementsForDVB-C/Kamaelia' doesn't exist

[21:16] < Rigolo> never mind ...

[21:16] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[21:16] < Rigolo> ctrl-c did not do its work :-)

[21:17] < mhrd-home> was going to say ... where did that trailing /Kamaelia come from?

[21:17] < vmlemon_> Hi again

[21:18] < mhrd-home> MS-: new branch adding support for a DVB-C descriptor.Rigolo points out how complicated all this DVB-SI tables stuff is. People chatted about DVB-H

[21:18] *** MS- nodss

[21:18] < mhrd-home> MS- : still lemsipped?

[21:18] < MS-> yep

[21:18] < MS-> probably not working tomorrow. (today was pretty ineffective)

[21:18] < MS-> idling here is relaxing

[21:19] < Rigolo> lemsipped?

[21:19] < vmlemon_> Drinking Lemsip, presumably having a cold or flu

[21:19] < MS-> Rigolo: lemsip == a brand name of paracetamol + vitamin c + lemon flavouring which you have with hot water. It's disgusting, but helps

[21:20] < mhrd-home> "all you need is lemsip" .. http://www.lemsip.co.uk/

[21:20] < MS-> No idea if you have lemsip where you are :)

[21:20] < Rigolo> I think we have something here called: Hot Coldrex of something like that

[21:21] < Rigolo> I usually try to OD myself on vitamin C when I feel a cold comming

[21:21] < vmlemon_> kamlogbot: give MS- a cold cure

[21:22] < vmlemon_> Meh, didn't work ;)

[21:22] < Rigolo> no chatterbot included in kamlogbot ? :-)

[21:23] *** Rigolo is using a very crude and hacked way to get that NIT capture ...

[21:23] < Rigolo> but it works :-)

[21:23] < vmlemon_> It does a few things

[21:23] < vmlemon_> kamlogbot: dance

[21:23] Reply: does the macarena

[21:23] < mhrd-home> hacked?

[21:23] < vmlemon_> kamlogbot: poke

[21:23] Reply: Not the eye! Not the eye!

[21:24] < Rigolo> http://rigolo.googlepages.com/Ziggo-NIT-new.txt

[21:26] < mhrd-home> having glanced at the first 1 or 2% of that file, can we tentatively declare that a success?

[21:26] < Rigolo> mhrd-home: yes ... looks good to me

[21:27] < mhrd-home> \o\ /o/

[21:27] < Rigolo> mhrd-home: I noticed that some service types are not parsed ...

[21:27] < vmlemon_> Heh, cool

[21:27] < mhrd-home> eg.

[21:27] < mhrd-home> ?

[21:27] < Rigolo> type 17 and 25 are used here

[21:28] < Rigolo> "reserved for future use (17)" is HDTV in MPEG2

[21:28] < Rigolo> "reserved for future use (25)" is eigenlijk "advanced codec HD digital television service", HDTV in MPEG4.

[21:28] < Rigolo> forgive me the dutch :-)

[21:28] < Rigolo> so you could add those to the service_type mapping if you want too

[21:28] < mhrd-home> can you give me a search pattern I can use to find it in that file?

[21:29] < Rigolo> [{'service_id': 22001, 'service_type': (25,)},

[21:29] < mhrd-home> ah, found it

[21:29] < Rigolo> [{'service_id': 29, 'service_type': (17,)},

[21:29] < vmlemon_> Does it recognise OpenTV services, out of interest?

[21:30] < Rigolo> so 17 is HDTVin MPEG2 and 25 in MPEG4

[21:30] < Rigolo> vmlemon_: that is addressed to mhrd-home I assume :-)

[21:30] < vmlemon_> Yup

[21:31] < vmlemon_> Although it's an open question

[21:31] < Rigolo> mhrd-home: there is also a 128 in that list ... they use that for software updates for the decoders

[21:31] < Rigolo> {'service_id': 987, 'service_type': (128,)},

[21:31] < mhrd-home> can you point me at any documents/specs that indicate these service_types ?

[21:31] < Rigolo> well .. it is from a dutch page ...

[21:32] < Rigolo> http://www.digitalekabeltelevisie.nl/techniek/tvhome.shtml

[21:32] < Rigolo> official name for 17 = MPEG-2 HD digital television service

[21:32] < Rigolo> and for 25 advanced codec HD digital television service

[21:33] < Rigolo> but the official list is probably on dvb.org (or something like that I guess)

[21:33] < mhrd-home> ah EN £00 468 is now a more recent version - seems to have 17 and 25 in it

[21:33] < mhrd-home> 128 is "user defined"

[21:33] < Rigolo> correct ...

[21:34] < Rigolo> leave it a that ..

[21:34] < Rigolo> 128 I mean

[21:34] < MS-> mhrd-home: Don't you love standards with "this bit is random"

[21:34] < Rigolo> because you never know what other people have used it for

[21:34] < mhrd-home> "undefined" doesn't necessarily mean "random" ... but then it doesn't really mean anything :-)

[21:34] < mhrd-home> Rigolo: agreed

[21:35] < Rigolo> dvbsnoop and other utils must have similair mapping means .. no idea where they keep their mapping tables

[21:35] < Rigolo> must be in the HG repository for dvb-utils I guess

[21:38] < mhrd-home> Rigolo: have just checked in a mod to include the missing service types

[21:38] < mhrd-home> do svn update in the branch and reinstall kamaelia from it

[21:38] < Rigolo> will do

[21:38] < MS-> mhrd-home: size of Axon with comments/docs/etc: 7717 lines

[21:38] < MS-> size of Axon without those: 2274 lines

[21:38] < Rigolo> and then I really need to go to bed ..

[21:38] < mhrd-home> MS- : umm, yeah :-)

[21:38] < mhrd-home> Rigolo: k

[21:39] < MS-> Size of miniaxonfull: 100 lines :)

[21:39] < Rigolo> alarm clock at 6am ... need to get some kids to school in time

[21:39] < MS-> Rigolo: I know the feeling :)

[21:39] < vmlemon_> Weren't the DVB specs only available under restrictive terms, and only then after payment, not so long ago?

[21:39] < mhrd-home> not sure - some maybe

[21:39] < mhrd-home> general specs - eg DVB-SI have been freely available for years

[21:40] < MS-> vmlemon_: yes. We have the advantage of being employed by someone who has access to them :)

[21:40] < MS-> and easy access to people who helped write them :)

[21:40] < vmlemon_> At least until recently

[21:40] < mhrd-home> ones specific to implementations are restricted. Eg. the UK "D-Book" that defines what a freeview-compliant STB or broadcast is expected to implement ... that is more restricted

[21:41] < Rigolo> who "owns" freeview now? is it a Ltd owned by the BBC?

[21:41] < mhrd-home> BBC part owns Freeview iirc .. along with others

[21:42] *** vmlemon_ isn't a fan of folks who call the Compact Disc specifications an open standard

[21:42] < mhrd-home> http://freeview.co.uk/freeview/About-Us ... "Freeview is managed by DTV Services Ltd, a company owned and run by its five shareholders - BBC, BSkyB, Channel 4, ITV and Arqiva. Launched in October 2002, the Freeview service provides free-to-air digital TV channels, radio stations and interactive services through an aerial."

[21:42] < vmlemon_> Didn't BSkyB own part of the consortium, somewhat ironically?

[21:43] < Rigolo> [{'service_id': 29, 'service_type': ('MPEG-2 HD digital television service',)},

[21:43] < mhrd-home> Rigolo: jolly good :-)

[21:43] < Rigolo> you can do a reload on Ziggo-Nit-new.txt if you like

[21:43] < mhrd-home> jolly good #2 :-)

[21:43] < MS-> Oh, Matt - did I point you at this: http://async.org.uk/Hugo.Simpson/MASCOT-3.1-Manual-June-1987.pdf ??

[21:44] < MS-> I'm sure I must've done

[21:44] < Rigolo> mmm looks good ... each day an other step further ...

[21:44] < vmlemon_> (Since their business is selling access to a competitive digital TV service)

[21:45] < Rigolo> mhrd-home: here the dvb-t license was owned by the company that owns all the TV broadcast towers and radio's etc

[21:46] < Rigolo> but then KPN bought that company .. and basically got the monopoly for dvb-t here in .nl

[21:46] < mhrd-home> MS- : not seen that before ... circuit schematics for software ?

[21:46] < Rigolo> so for internet you can choose between cable or copper (=kpn)

[21:46] < MS-> It's Kamaelia, from 30-35 years ago

[21:47] < MS-> It's got the same concepts

[21:47] < Rigolo> and for tv you can choose between cable or dvb-t (=kpn)

[21:47] < MS-> Plus a couple we don't

[21:47] < vmlemon_> ONdigital/ITV Digital had the "monopoly" on DVB-T services, I take it?

[21:47] < vmlemon_> Yay, the choice of no choice

[21:47] < MS-> Different names, but clearly the same thing

[21:47] < mhrd-home> sort of ... the bbc owned its multiplex ... independent of ONdigital/ITV-digital

[21:48] < Rigolo> so we are getting a duopoly here .. one side the cable companies (basically 2 covering different geograhical regions) and the KPN

[21:48] < MS-> mhrd-home: his home page: http://async.org.uk/Hugo.Simpson/

[21:48] < mhrd-home> much as we do now ... but was happy for it to be subsumed to the larger brand iiuc

[21:48] < vmlemon_> (You can have KPN, KPN, KPN or maybe even KPN, or nothing at all) ;)

[21:49] < Rigolo> mhrd-home: didn dvb-t in the UK do not so well at first?

[21:49] < mhrd-home> MS- : oh, just up the road

[21:49] < mhrd-home> yep

[21:49] < Rigolo> vmlemon_: well ... ziggo/upc (depends where you live) or KPN

[21:49] < MS-> http://www.object-forge.com/Other_Pages/ExampleACPDiagram/ExampleACP_page.htm

[21:49] < vmlemon_> Aah

[21:49] < Rigolo> and there is a new company running fiber to lot's of homes .. but now KPN bought 50% stake in them

[21:50] < Rigolo> and our anti-competivness office approved that .. ggrrrr

[21:50] < vmlemon_> Still no other DVB-C operators here

[21:51] < vmlemon_> Except VirgiNTeLewest Media, erm Virgin Media

[21:51] < Rigolo> I'm happy that I have ziggo ... they use Irdeto and you can "choose" your own STB

[21:51] < MS-> mhrd-home: Also : http://www.object-forge.com/Other_Pages/DiningPhils/DiningPhils_page.htm

[21:51] < vmlemon_> (after they subsumed Virgin Mobile and NTL, after NTL ate Telewest)

[21:51] < Rigolo> with UPC you have to use their STB and they have Nagra

[21:52] < MS-> Two things they have which we don't:

[21:52] < MS-> disconnected boxes (though we have something close/similar using backplanes)

[21:53] < MS-> Another is the equivalent of .notify() on elements inside the STM

[21:53] < mhrd-home> .notify() ... being told of value changes?

[21:53] < mhrd-home> be cool to implement that as a linkage .. delivering data to an inbox on your component

[21:54] < Rigolo> okee ... deep hardcode Kamaelia discussions ... then I better go to bed .. :-)

[21:54] < MS-> mhrd-home: yep

[21:54] *** mhrd-home missing NetBeans Java autocompletion whilst editing python now :-)

[21:54] < vmlemon_> Still, we've got a cat, and real-world testing, so all is well ;)

[21:54] < MS-> Rigolo: Night :)

[21:54] < Rigolo> thanks again for the help ...

[21:55] < MS-> vmlemon_: Indeed :)

[21:55] < mhrd-home> dammit gnome-text-editor ... why should I have to *think*!!! :-)

[21:55] < mhrd-home> Rigolo: no problem :-)

[21:55] < Rigolo> I will see if I can get some other people to start playing with Kamaelia and DVB-C

[21:55] < MS-> :-D

[21:55] < vmlemon_> Interesting discussion by the way

[21:55] *** Rigolo will also try to put his "Dream Backend" mediaserver thought on the net somewhere

[21:55] < vmlemon_> from what I managed to catch

[21:56] < Rigolo> and I will start to read about that superduper Kamaelia Macro.py :-)

[21:57] < vmlemon_> There was a running version for people to play with at one time

[21:58] < vmlemon_> Although only BBC folks could download the transcoded video

[21:58] < MS-> Rigolo: If you rip out the transcoding, then you'll be able to grab probably all the channels on a multiplex

[21:58] < MS-> mhrd-home: http://orestis.gr/blog/2008/09/15/pysmell-v05-released/ might be of use to you

[21:58] < vmlemon_> There was a Magic PID

[21:59] < mhrd-home> 0x2000

[21:59] < MS-> Implements duck inferencing

[21:59] < vmlemon_> That's the one

[21:59] < vmlemon_> Interesting name

[22:00] < MS-> vmlemon_: its idea is this

[22:00] < MS-> given 2 lines of code:

[22:00] < mhrd-home> MS- : ta ... however """for now only the Vim integration works""" ... hmmm, I might stick with gnome-text-editor for the moment after all :-)

[22:00] < Rigolo> MS-: I want to have 4 transport streams at the same Time I think ... :-)

[22:00] < Rigolo> did you guys ever thing about that ... scheduling conflicts with multiple DVB cards etc?

[22:00] < MS-> mhrd-home: You may be able to encourage aa__ to add it to PIDA

[22:01] < MS-> vmlemon_: given this:

[22:01] < MS-> o.walk()

[22:01] < MS-> o.quack()

[22:01] < vmlemon_> I think there's a limit, if you only have one tuner

[22:01] < mhrd-home> aa__ .... have I ever told you what a lovely nick that is? ;-) :-)

[22:01] < vmlemon_> Not sure about DVB-C, though

[22:01] < MS-> it can look through all the classes it knows about, and figure out that o has to be something that walk()s and quack()s

[22:02] < vmlemon_> Aah

[22:02] < MS-> And then if you next type

[22:02] < MS-> o.

[22:02] < vmlemon_> Coo

[22:02] < MS-> it can offer you the alternatives

[22:02] < MS-> which is quite neat

[22:03] < vmlemon_> Argh, damn Symbian IRC client is eating keypresses

[22:03] < MS-> mhrd-home: Yeah, being vim only is it's achilles heel

[22:03] < mhrd-home> vmlemon_ you're irc'ing on a phone?

[22:04] < vmlemon_> (It seems to drop them whilst typing, if a message arrives, for some reason)

[22:04] < vmlemon_> At the moment, yes

[22:06] < vmlemon_> Just set "Don't update the screen whilst typing" in the options menu

[22:06] < vmlemon_> Seems fine now

[22:07] < vmlemon_> Ugh, UMTS seems to drain the battery faster than EDGE/GPRS here

[22:07] < vmlemon_> How delightfully efficient

[22:08] < vmlemon_> (Was at 6 bars, now at 3)

[22:09] *** vmlemon_ wonders if HSDPA/HSUPA is any better, but doesn't have a compatible phone

[22:11] < vmlemon_> kamlogbot: ecky

[22:11] Reply: Ptang!

[22:12] < mhrd-home> my housemate has just pointed out that it is snowing here (south london)

[22:12] < vmlemon_> Amazing

[22:13] < vmlemon_> No snow here

[22:13] < mhrd-home> bit early in the year for that kind of weather!

[22:13] < vmlemon_> I'm bemused at hearing Christmas ads so early

[22:14] < vmlemon_> especially for stuff that people probably only buy every 5 years like carpets and sofas

[22:15] < vmlemon_> (It's not Crimbo yet, damn it!)

[22:16] < vmlemon_> Never really got the hype about Halloween, either

[22:18] < vmlemon_> Nice, an MP3 file with a corrupt piece of another at the end

[22:19] < mhrd-home> MS- : I'm tempted to leave that DVB-C branch for a few days - see if Rigolo comes up with anything more - before putting it up for merging

[22:19] < MS-> mhrd-home: Seems sensible

[22:21] < vmlemon_> Any regressions or known issues for S and T, out of interest?

[22:22] < mhrd-home> not tested, but extremely unlikely with mods this evening .... only affected data structures not used in S and T

[22:22] < vmlemon_> Aah

[22:23] < mhrd-home> Descriptors.py ... big pile of helper functions for parsing individual data structures in DVB-SI tables. The mod was to fill out the implementation of a DVB-C specific one that was previously just a stub.

[22:23] < mhrd-home> plus updated a mapping table by adding some newer entries to it ... was well exercised by Rigolo's tests

[22:24] < MS-> k, night all

[22:24] *** vmlemon_ ponders the seemingly limited choices for DAB, DAB+ and DRM in comparison

[22:24] *** MS- is now known as ms-afk

[22:24] < mhrd-home> ms-afk: night

[22:26] < vmlemon_> (The "other DRM"/Digital Radio Mondial, of course) ;)

[22:27] < vmlemon_> *Mondiale

[22:42] < vmlemon_> Night

[23:06] < mhrd-home> night all

[23:06] *** mhrd-home has parted #kamaelia