[06:30] *** mhrd has joined #kamaelia

[06:35] *** mhrd has parted #kamaelia

[06:35] *** mhrd has joined #kamaelia

[08:16] *** Uraeus has joined #kamaelia

[08:24] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[09:00] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[09:01] < vmlemon_> Hi

[09:01] < MS-> hi

[09:05] < vmlemon_> kamlogbot: dance

[09:05] Reply: does the macarena

[09:07] < vmlemon_> Hmm, is a preview of the new site available?

[09:08] < MS-> http://www.kamaelia.org/Home

[09:09] < vmlemon_> Thanks

[09:10] < MS-> Needs cleanup in a fair amount of places

[09:10] < MS-> But that's the general new theme

[09:10] < MS-> you're welcome :)

[09:10] < MS-> Any comments welcome as you'd expect :)

[09:11] *** vmlemon_ goes to look for a spare box on the LAN to view it on

[09:15] < vmlemon_> Very nice

[09:18] < vmlemon_> Hype! ;)

[09:24] < vmlemon_> Yay, "Pick Isambard or Eve, you can switch between them at anytime"

[09:26] < MS-> Thanks :)

[09:26] *** mhrd has joined #kamaelia

[09:30] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[09:33] *** mhrd has joined #kamaelia

[10:03] < vmlemon_> Hah "The kernel panicked while trying to panic"

[10:03] < ms--> Novel

[10:10] *** Lawouach1 has joined #kamaelia

[10:13] < Lawouach1> hmm

[10:13] < Lawouach1> hello

[10:13] < ms--> heya

[10:13] < Lawouach1> http://www.nagare.org/ < -- another web framework

[10:14] < ms--> Saw it referenced on the stackless list

[10:14] < ms--> Not looked at their site though :)

[10:15] < ms--> That is a shiny site

[10:16] < Lawouach1> indeed :)

[10:16] < ms--> very very shiny site actually

[10:16] < ms--> Looking at the demos :)

[10:17] < ms--> I think is where I think "yes, I was right to think that doing much more than wsgi support would be a dumb idea" :)

[10:17] < Lawouach1> they're French. I went to an interview with the company behind the framework back in February

[10:17] < ms--> since there's lots of people doing interesting things out there

[10:17] < ms--> cool

[10:18] < Lawouach1> But I didn't want to join the agency that had put me through so it didn't happen

[10:18] < aa_> I use this framework called glashammer

[10:18] < ms--> http://glashammer.welterde.de/ ?

[10:18] < aa_> yes

[10:18] < aa_> ms--: as usual, I am biased

[10:18] < ms--> most people are - it's a matter of figuring out the bias :)

[10:19] < aa_> ms--: well I wrote glashammer to fill my own needs

[10:19] < ms--> heh

[10:19] < aa_> so judge the level :)

[10:20] < Lawouach1> funny the communist look n'feel :)

[10:21] < ms--> In emergency, break glass ? (hammer for breaking glass ? )

[10:22] < aa_> oh that's nice

[10:22] < aa_> I was more thinking "To a glashammer, your applicaiton is another nail that will break it"

[10:25] < aa_> word for the wise, never put a - character in a mysql db name

[10:39] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[10:42] *** acrimo_ has joined #kamaelia

[10:43] *** acrimo_ is now known as acrimo

[11:39] < ms--> ooh, interesting: http://wiki.reia-lang.org/wiki/Reia_Programming_Language

[12:40] *** Chong has joined #kamaelia

[12:55] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[13:00] < Davbo> Lawouach_: You heard the new Streets album?

[13:13] < Lawouach1> nope

[13:13] < Lawouach1> how is it?

[13:19] < Davbo> it's a lot more chilled out and mature than the others

[13:20] < aa_> dry yer eyes mate..

[13:26] < Davbo> bought a ticket to see him live yesterday

[13:28] < aa_> wow, nice one

[13:28] < aa_> I do like the streets, although I am probably too old for all that nowadays :)

[13:29] < Lawouach1> I like the streets too

[13:29] < Lawouach1> will get the album and we'll see

[13:29] < Lawouach1> the one before that wasn't the best apart from a few good songs

[13:29] < Davbo> Yeah it'll be pretty crazy, it's at "Plug" in Sheffield which is a pretty small club...

[13:29] < Lawouach1> but I love the first two

[13:30] < Davbo> same here Lawouach1, this new one is better

[13:31] < Davbo> not as good as Original Pirate Material though

[13:38] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[13:49] < Davbo> Hey MS-

[13:49] < MS-> Hiya

[14:07] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[14:11] < vmlemon_> Hi

[14:44] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[14:51] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[14:58] < vmlemon_> kamlogbot: ecky

[14:58] Reply: Ptang!

[17:04] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[18:29] < aa_> MS-: around?

[18:29] < MS-> vaguely :)

[18:29] < MS-> will be afk in a little while for a little while and then back though

[18:29] < aa_> MS-: I wanted to reply off list about your "any suggestions" with kamaelia

[18:29] < MS-> Much appreciated

[18:30] < aa_> because I fall into that category of "person who probably should be using it"

[18:30] < aa_> "but isn't"

[18:30] < aa_> MS-: but then I can't face formalising a complete mailing list message, lest I get judged for sloppy puntuation etc :)

[18:30] < MS-> To be honest, it's not so much "I think you should all use this", but more "given what everyone says, it seems to me this would be useful, but I don't know how to explain it" :)

[18:31] < aa_> MS-: well, when do we ever need concurrency?

[18:31] < aa_> that's the thing

[18:31] < MS-> It can make life *alot* simpler :)

[18:31] < MS-> That's the rather amusing thing

[18:31] < aa_> right

[18:31] < aa_> actually pida is going in the direction that I think kamaelia would help

[18:31] < MS-> look at it this way, getting a cup of coffee from starbucks is a linear task, yes?

[18:32] < MS-> But have you seen how they make the coffee ?

[18:32] < aa_> it's highly concurrent and we have a gazillion things going on at the same time (all in threads) but feeding a single UI

[18:32] *** MS- nods

[18:32] < aa_> now gtk+ support should be my mission

[18:32] < aa_> (for kamaelia)

[18:32] < MS-> one person takes the order, writes it down, and passes the order onto the next person

[18:32] < MS-> That would be greatly appreciated

[18:33] < aa_> MS-: but it is highly impossible for me :)

[18:33] < aa_> MS-: like a gtk UI can't be like the pygame one

[18:33] < MS-> Dunno, can you write hello world in gtk ?

[18:33] < vmlemon_> and then at least 2 or 3 people make the coffee and put it into the cup, as well as collecting payment and giving change?

[18:33] < aa_> or the one that has Button() and things

[18:33] < MS-> I can't fwfw

[18:33] < MS-> vmlemon_: yep, precisely :)

[18:33] < aa_> MS-: plain normal hello world?

[18:34] < vmlemon_> (Whilst preparing orders for other people at the same time, somehow, too)...

[18:34] < aa_> MS-: oh and the website really sucks

[18:34] < MS-> Something like that, yes. Something with buttons and stuff in :)

[18:34] < MS-> aa_: heh

[18:34] < vmlemon_> aa_: The new one? ;)

[18:34] < MS-> k

[18:34] < aa_> haven't seen a new one

[18:34] < aa_> MS-: I *love* the hexagon logo thing with the cats though

[18:34] < MS-> the new one is here: http://www.kamaelia.org/Home - it's not finished yet,

[18:34] < MS-> oh.

[18:34] < vmlemon_> http://www.kamaelia.org/Home gives you a sneak preview

[18:35] < MS-> the hexagon has gone

[18:35] < MS-> new and improved cat though :)

[18:35] < aa_> oh :)

[18:35] < aa_> cool

[18:35] < MS-> I like the hexagons as well thouhg, they'll probably come back somewhere

[18:35] < MS-> (I like the interlocking metaphor it implies :) )

[18:35] < aa_> yes

[18:37] < aa_> MS-: and you really need to sphinxify your documentation (imo)

[18:37] < vmlemon_> More power to others who find the Bicker Manor thing ;)

[18:38] < vmlemon_> (That's left as an exercise for the reader ;) )

[18:38] *** vmlemon_ hides

[18:39] < MS-> sphinxify ? Make it harder to understand ?

[18:40] < vmlemon_> Add Sphinxes, probably ;)

[18:40] < aa_> MS-: well, ignore that one, the docs I am reading are actually pretty good

[18:40] < MS-> What component is first on four inboxes, then on two inboxes and finally on three inboxes ?

[18:40] < MS-> (sorry, bit silly )

[18:40] < MS-> heheh

[18:43] < MS-> aa_: whilst its not the same, Lawouach_'s PyQT integrates with Kamaelia cleanly in his jlib code: http://trac.defuze.org/wiki/jlib

[18:43] < MS-> This file shows a progression from a non-kamaelia chunk of code, to something kamaelia-ised:

[18:43] < MS-> http://code.google.com/p/kamaelia/source/browse/trunk/Sketches/MPS/WebCam.py

[18:44] < aa_> that's very interesting

[18:44] < aa_> where is the actual pyqt integration?

[18:48] < MS-> This is fairly old, but follows the same sorts of ideas as well:

[18:48] < MS-> http://edit.kamaelia.org/cgi-bin/blog/blog.cgi?rm=viewpost&nodeid=1113495151

[18:48] < MS-> IIRC it's at a high level

[18:48] < MS-> here: https://svn.defuze.org/oss/jlib/jlib/core/qaxon.py (I think)

[18:48] < MS-> https://svn.defuze.org/oss/jlib/jlib/core/pubsub.py is an example of usage

[18:48] < MS-> In jlibPubSubDiscoveryComponent, you'll note that effectively the messages to/from inboxes/outboxes essentially map to slots/signals in pyqt

[18:50] < MS-> http://code.google.com/p/kamaelia/source/browse/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Kamaelia/Apps/Compose/GUI shows how tkinter works

[18:51] < MS-> again in that callbacks generally fire off a message out an outbox, and messages from inboxes fire off an update of the gui in some way

[18:51] < MS-> The upshot really is the GUI code for tkinter (and by the looks of things for PyQT) generally ends up focussing solely on doing UI stuff

[18:51] < aa_> right

[18:52] < aa_> now do you attempt to map entire GUI API?

[18:52] < MS-> Just the bits you think makes sense

[18:52] < aa_> well, it all makes sense

[18:52] < MS-> I'd pick the simplest thing initially then :)

[18:53] < aa_> I guess "components" here would have trouble being single widgets they would have to be bigger thnings

[18:53] < MS-> Bit Torrent integration is a nice example here of intergrating something large

[18:53] < MS-> yep

[18:53] < MS-> pygame is good for doing widgets as single components, where as for a gui I'd expect it to be more whole panels or windows

[18:53] < MS-> (for a proper gui library)

[18:53] < aa_> right

[18:54] < MS-> Bit torrent is a nice example

[18:54] < aa_> we call them "delegates" in our language

[18:54] < aa_> like a single mvc bit

[18:54] < MS-> The gsoc student who worked on integrating that took the rather novel step of replacing the entire gui as inboxes/outboxes/messages. Made his actual gsoc project really really fast

[18:55] < aa_> hmm, interesting

[18:55] < MS-> since he just picked the bit where things were decoupled and threw away the gui

[18:56] < aa_> so, it would be quite simple say to start my ui in its own process and just let it run, that is allowed right?

[18:57] < vmlemon_> Out of interest, is the Bicker Manor thing built with Python/Kamaelia?

[18:57] < MS-> As you say it's like MVC. Except you're far more explicit about it

[18:57] < MS-> Yep

[18:57] < MS-> For example, this: https://kamaelia.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/Sketches/MPS/MVC/wxMVC-kamaelia.py is an attempt at doing MVC using wxWidgets.

[18:57] < MS-> I didn't take that further because wxWidgets apparently is very odd with it's threading (it does stuff behind your back that causes problems).

[18:58] < MS-> The backend transcode system is, and some other bits are.

[18:58] < vmlemon_> Cool

[18:58] < aa_> MS-: last url needs some auth

[19:00] *** Uraeus has joined #kamaelia

[19:05] *** vmlemon_ wonders if there's a way to use Kamaelia with AppleScript/OSA or Windows Scripting Host...

[19:12] < MS-> However it's primarily a web app, and web apps don't need that structure really

[19:12] < MS-> oh, of course - you want this

[19:12] < MS-> http://kamaelia.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/Sketches/MPS/MVC/wxMVC-kamaelia.py

[19:12] < MS-> ok, biab

[19:33] *** ms-- has joined #kamaelia

[19:34] < ms--> kamlogbot: dance

[19:34] Reply: does the macarena

[19:34] < vmlemon_> How handy, the company hosting the Xen server I have an account on doesn't provide any info on their connectivity, and their website is almost entirely in Dutch

[19:58] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[20:43] < ms--> night all

[20:43] *** ms-- has parted #kamaelia