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[09:03] < MS-> morning

[09:04] < Uraeus> MS-: so why did you get left behind when *everyone* else went off to IBC? ;)

[09:13] < MS-> I went to Pycon :)

[09:13] < MS-> Far more fun :)

[09:14] < MS-> Two presentations:

[09:14] < MS-> http://www.slideshare.net/kamaelian/practical-concurrent-systems-made-simple-using-kamaelia-presentation/

[09:14] < MS-> and

[09:14] < MS-> http://www.slideshare.net/kamaelian/sharing-data-and-services-safely-in-concurrent-systems-using-kamaelia-presentation/

[10:04] < MS-> Besides why would I want to break my run of "I've worked at R&D now for X years and never been to IBC" ?

[10:04] < MS-> I was potentially going to go in 2003, but our youngest was born and going off to IBC then would not have been appropriate :)

[10:05] < vmlemon_> What's IBC, out of interest?

[10:08] < MS-> Immense Broadcasting Conference in amstedam each year

[10:08] < MS-> It's HUGE

[10:08] < MS-> (oK the I == international really)

[10:09] < MS-> Basically it's big

[10:09] < MS-> Then really big

[10:09] < vmlemon_> Aah

[10:09] < MS-> then really really really big

[10:09] < MS-> Apparently

[10:09] < MS-> I've not been :)

[10:09] < MS-> It gets so busy that hotels get booked up months in advance

[10:09] < MS-> to the extent that some people get trains etc in and hotel prices go through the roof

[10:10] < vmlemon_> Ouch

[10:10] < MS-> It's actually been known for people to find it cheaper to have a hotel in a different country and fly in in the morning

[10:10] < MS-> Apparently

[10:10] < MS-> (given amsterdam's airport is pretty close to the centre etc)

[10:51] < Lawouach_> afternoon

[10:51] < MS-> heya

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[11:01] < MS-> greetings

[11:03] < MS-> Watching this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fipFKyW2FA4&feature=PlayList&p=D415FAF806EC47A1&index=12

[11:03] < MS-> It's interesting because I've reached the part about the dependency graph - which bits of django depend on which other bits

[11:04] < MS-> Probably be interesting to do the same thing for kamaelia

[11:04] < MS-> Hopefully not as much of a hideous mess

[11:04] < MS-> (almost certainly not in fact)

[11:05] < MS-> The external dependencies would be interesting to map as well, but most of them are highly dependent on what you want to use

[11:07] < Davbo> Ah, interesting

[11:07] < Davbo> Hi all btw. :-)

[11:08] < MS-> The presentation is right as well

[11:08] < MS-> ~1999/2000 lots of people were acting as if Zope was the next big thing, and just a few years later everyone hated it

[11:08] < MS-> I never liked the look of it personally

[11:09] < MS-> But then I don't do monolithic

[11:15] < MS-> Posted link to slides to the list

[11:20] < Lawouach_> I think they made a huge communication mistake in keeping the name Zope for Zope 3

[11:20] < MS-> Probably

[11:20] < aa_> should've colled it Drupyl

[11:20] < Lawouach_> they should have renamed it and depart from Zope 2 as much as they could from a communication POV

[11:20] < Lawouach_> :p

[11:20] < MS-> aa_: Ha!

[11:20] < Lawouach_> That'd be Plone

[11:21] < MS-> INoZ

[11:21] < MS-> It's Not Zope

[11:23] < aa_> or maybe Zope Application Server os something

[11:23] < aa_> they couldn't get rid of the name though, Zope was like the first successful Python app, iirc

[11:24] < MS-> aa_: The name had become a liability

[11:24] < MS-> Simply calling it "Zope 3" doesn't really help

[11:24] < aa_> hmm, I guess

[11:24] < MS-> Vista for example has a terrible reputation at present

[11:24] < aa_> but z3 is so very very different from z2

[11:24] < MS-> Suppose they brought out Vista 2

[11:24] < aa_> ah right

[11:24] < MS-> Or "Vista NT"

[11:24] < aa_> Vista ME

[11:25] < MS-> (which was (say) just XP skinned to look like Vista, and thus address most of people's gripes...)

[11:25] < MS-> It'd still have a bad reputation

[11:25] < MS-> Interestingly, microsoft have tested this

[11:26] < MS-> Allegedly at least anyway

[11:26] < MS-> It's a marketing video

[11:26] < MS-> simply changing the name changed perception and willingness to try

[11:27] < aa_> didn't realise people hate vista

[11:30] < MS-> This will amuse in that case: http://dotnet.org.za/codingsanity/archive/2007/12/14/review-windows-xp.aspx

[11:30] < MS-> I'm not particularly fussed by it since I've been using Linux as my primary system for around 11 or 12 years now

[11:31] < MS-> And not used windows day in day out for probably 8 or 9 years at least

[11:31] < aa_> MS-: yeah, mee too, interesting though, Pycon always reminds me that most people use windows

[11:31] < MS-> Though I've recently installed Windows XP in a virtual box, because Windows Solitaire is very well written

[11:31] < aa_> ahahahah

[11:33] < Davbo> Lawouach_: I think the WebFaction guys are gonna start hating me. They made my account and asked me to add my card as a "Payment Source" which I did but I get the same error.. :-(

[11:33] < MS-> I'm serious - it's the best use for virtual box and windows that I've found so far :-D

[11:34] < aa_> MS-: I have virtualized windows build slaves here

[11:34] < aa_> but then I ship windows binary software

[11:34] < MS-> indeed

[11:38] < Lawouach_> Davbo: they are nice people really

[11:38] < Lawouach_> just explain your problem

[11:38] < Lawouach_> They'll be helpful

[11:38] < MS-> I can vouch for that

[11:38] < Lawouach_> If you do have more issue, let me know and I'll contac Remi

[11:39] < MS-> I've met Remi once (twice?) a few years back - he's a really nice guy

[11:39] < MS-> OK, I'm off for food, biab

[11:39] < Lawouach_> he is

[11:39] *** MS- is now known as ms-afk

[11:40] < Davbo> I've replied to their support email

[11:40] < Lawouach_> Davbo: tell them that you cannot use PayPal. However if your card is refused by 2checkout (the other system they use) you are in trouble I think :/

[11:40] < Lawouach_> But ask them, i don't know the details

[11:41] *** Davbo has found a horrible picture of himself at PyCon

[11:41] < aa_> Davbo: link!

[11:42] < Davbo> it's a bad picture :-(

[11:42] < aa_> Davbo: ok, well, I am in this picture: http://www.heise-online.co.uk/slideshow/image/6/6 at the back, paying zero attention

[11:42] < aa_> my speech bubble would be saying "I wish these guys would f* off"

[11:43] < Davbo> Hah

[11:43] < Davbo> I'm on the left in this picture, http://www.flickr.com/photos/adewale_oshineye/2857134315/

[11:43] < Davbo> I'll have you know I did solve the puzzle Google gave me and got a T-shirt

[11:44] < Davbo> so it's not all bad

[11:47] < Lawouach_> clap clap

[11:48] < Lawouach_> ah ah

[11:49] < Lawouach_> that's nice look you give

[11:49] < Lawouach_> was there a girl somewhere? :)

[11:54] < Davbo> Hah

[11:54] < Davbo> Actually the girl from Google was talking to me :P

[11:56] < Lawouach_> hmmm

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[12:03] < Davbo> Even I struggle to spot me in this one: http://gallery3.pyconuk.org/Images//stockphoto/2008/09/15/1221518753.jpg

[12:04] < Davbo> ms-afk is easy to spot though

[12:12] < Lawouach_> was there anyone else from GSoC like orphans?

[12:21] < Davbo> umm, not afaik

[12:52] < ms-afk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/adewale_oshineye/2857134315/ -- ahh, that's the name of that guy

[12:53] < ms-afk> I'm not sure if he liked the fact I used his comment from Open Tech 3 years back where he went "So, what are you doing here that's new"

[12:53] < ms-afk> with my answer being "trying to make it usable"

[12:53] < ms-afk> I'm still not convinced he understands

[12:53] < ms-afk> He seemed to wonder why we haven't done any distributed pipelines or graphlines yet

[12:54] < ms-afk> One part of the answer to that (aside from "No immediate yet") is that when I put in a bid (in two versions) for enough machines to make sense (10 for the smaller version 20 for the larger) it was bounced back

[12:55] < ms-afk> (the machines I'd asked for we Mac Mini's incidentally when they were 299 ex vat, so we're not talking extortionate amounts of money)

[12:55] < ms-afk> The reason it was bounced back was due to "whats the immediate need"

[12:55] < ms-afk> Seems a bit silly to develop a distributed system, only to distribute it across one CPU

[12:55] < Lawouach_> https://mailman.ik.nu/pipermail/twisted-jabber/2008-September/000155.html

[12:55] < Lawouach_> uh uh

[12:56] < Lawouach_> gotta have to work hard to beat them :D

[12:59] < ms-afk> They're mainly thinking server side though AIUI

[12:59] < Lawouach_> yeap

[12:59] < Lawouach_> But if I had the time I would do it too

[12:59] *** ms-afk nods

[13:01] < ms-afk> OOI what's needed to turn what you've got into something serverside?

[13:01] *** ms-afk realises this is a bit of a can of worms

[13:02] < ms-afk> Or is that document at the top basically what you need to do

[13:02] < ms-afk> ie this: http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/XMPPServerArchitecture

[13:03] < Lawouach_> It really depends on the intent

[13:04] < Lawouach_> trying to be server that can match OpenFire and ejabberd in terms of stability and features is rather large in scope.

[13:04] < Lawouach_> However there is a need IMO for much smaller, more specific servers

[13:04] < Lawouach_> I guess that's why they'll start by XMPP routers

[13:04] *** ms-afk nods

[13:05] < Lawouach_> In other words, I would almost built a server based on the use case at hand.

[13:05] < Lawouach_> And perhaps once I have built enough of them would I be able to create a more generic one.

[13:05] *** ms-afk nods

[13:06] < ms-afk> The reason I ask is *mainly* curiosity, but there was a mail on an internal list recently saying that Audio&Music are buying an XMPP server

[13:07] < ms-afk> which matches some public noises about things they've been doing recently

[13:07] < Lawouach_> is it a hardware one?

[13:08] < Lawouach_> I think there are some devices that can route XMPP stanzas at the hardware level

[13:08] < Lawouach_> Which normally increases the throughput

[13:11] < ms-afk> Not sure, but wouldn't be surprised

[13:22] < Davbo> ms-afk: I'm gonna email the Python in higher education slides to my tutor at university, hopefully it'll have an impact :-)

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[13:53] *** Davbo thinks moving from Java to Python would be very long process for Sheffield

[13:57] < aa_> I would say if the app is maintainable, leave it in java

[13:59] < Davbo> Agreed aa_, I meant as a teaching language. My university (Uni of Sheffield) currently teaches in Java... and they're some kind of "Sun institution" or some rubbish

[13:59] < aa_> hah

[14:00] < aa_> well, depends what kind of UNI sheffield is I guess

[14:00] < aa_> do they want to generate code monkeys to go and work at IBM, or do they want to educate students in the universe :)

[14:00] < Davbo> it's alright to teach Java imo if you're doing a more "vocational" course, however we're not..

[14:00] < Davbo> Yeah, exactly

[14:00] < aa_> Davbo: exactly ^^

[14:00] < Davbo> :-)

[14:01] < aa_> yeah s/the dig at IBM/vocational/

[14:03] < ms-afk> "thinks moving from Java to Python would be very long process for Sheffield"

[14:03] < ms-afk> I can almost guarantee that'd be a 2-3 year process at least, based on the politics that'd be involved

[14:03] < ms-afk> Not least due to the fact that Python doesn't require type declarations

[14:06] < Lawouach_> I've finally replied Michael

[14:06] < Lawouach_> to the aha thread

[14:07] *** ms-afk reads

[14:08] < Davbo> I'd love to be the one which starts that ball rolling though ms-afk

[14:08] < Davbo> well, a contributor :-)

[14:09] < ms-afk> That's very much appreciated - this specific bit: "In other words, developers can focus on learning what your program does," is very specifically a design goal - largely because I've been at the sharp end of the wedge in maintenance.

[14:09] < ms-afk> Thanks - that's really really fantastic BTW :)

[14:09] < Lawouach_> :)

[14:09] < ms-afk> I don't actually think of things in that way, for the obvious reason - so getting a different perspective is really cool :)

[14:10] < Lawouach_> I see

[14:10] < ms-afk> The thing I particularly like about it for example is you're only mentioning development process benefits

[14:10] < ms-afk> Rather than anything to do with concurrency - which for me is particularly cool :)

[14:11] < ms-afk> really neat :)

[14:11] < ms-afk> Very much appreciated

[14:12] < Davbo> Reply from my tutor:

[14:12] < Davbo> Couldn't agree more personally, also python has excellent scientific

[14:12] < Davbo> computing packages (numpy etc) which a postdoc of mine was using

[14:12] < Davbo> recently. However, stepping into the diatribe of which language is best

[14:12] < Davbo> is hazardous, particularly for me that only really code in Matlab. There

[14:12] < Davbo> is a proposal of introducing more scientific computing in the course,

[14:12] < Davbo> and I'll certainly suggest python in due time.

[14:14] < Lawouach_> :)

[14:14] < Davbo> I wasn't really suggesting Python is better than Java. But sounds like things might be happening to bring Python into the course

[14:14] < Davbo> (of course, Python is better than Java)

[14:15] < ms-afk> "I'll certainly suggest python in due time."

[14:15] < ms-afk> I love that sort of phrase.

[14:15] < Davbo> I just feel sorry for the people that thing "programming" == Java since that's their first experience

[14:15] < ms-afk> Have you seen Yes Prime Minister or Yes Minister ?

[14:16] *** ms-afk wonders if its too far before your time to bother even with repeats...

[14:16] < ms-afk> Reminds me of the phrase "it's under consideration" meaning

[14:16] < ms-afk> "we've lost your proposal"

[14:16] < ms-afk> "it's under active consideration"

[14:16] < ms-afk> meaning

[14:16] < Davbo> Yeah, I've seen it

[14:16] < ms-afk> "We're trying to find it"

[14:16] < ms-afk> cool :)

[14:17] < aa_> reminds me of uni, we did a very "java" course.. and I had a friend, who left after the first term. He had learned that he could get a decent percentage of questions right in tutorials by answering "toString()!"

[14:17] < ms-afk> aa_: That's really sad.

[14:18] < aa_> yeah, well, the boy wasn't cut out for it

[14:18] < aa_> and I was $GEEKY_MATURE_STUDENT

[14:18] < Davbo> Heh, exactly. I'm certain Java makes many people drop out of the course...

[14:18] < ms-afk> We has SML & Pascal, later C, Java appeared on the scene just as I was leaving

[14:19] < aa_> Visual Basic and Java

[14:19] < aa_> and some C

[14:19] < aa_> (you can see the quality of my polytechnic^Wuniversity)

[14:20] < ms-afk> My third year project was written in both SML and C (using open GL) and using a source description language and a mini (forth like) language for communications between the two processes

[14:20] < ms-afk> Using lex and yacc for both sml and C :)

[14:21] < ms-afk> I thought it was the easy way to do things :)

[14:21] < Davbo> I'll decide to work in Python in my third year anyway, I don't think they mind at that point...

[14:21] < aa_> ms-afk: but this must have been in the 1800s eh

[14:22] < Davbo> aa_: :o

[14:22] < Davbo> Hehe

[14:22] < Davbo> Sounds like fun ms-afk

[14:25] < ms-afk> aa_: 16:00s perhaps

[14:25] < aa_> ehehe

[14:25] < ms-afk> Davbo: It was actually :-)

[14:25] < ms-afk> Oh that reminds me

[14:25] < ms-afk> You know I told you about that parser ?

[14:26] < Davbo> I recall when I started my course I had recently listened to a podcast with Guido talking about Python 3000 on it. And on my first day I discovered my tutor was also called Guido

[14:26] < ms-afk> -- it's here: http://www.slideshare.net/kamaelian/swp-a-generic-language-parser

[14:26] < ms-afk> I see

[14:26] < Davbo> Ah cool

[14:27] < Davbo> I got my hopes up so went to check and found they didn't have the same surname, oh well ;-)

[14:27] < ms-afk> :)

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[14:37] *** vmlemon_ wonders what the Jacqueline recall thing was about on Backstage

[14:38] < ms-afk> Probably meant to post the reply just internally rather than to the list

[14:38] < ms-afk> The standard mail client at the beeb is MS outlook and there's and exchange server.

[14:38] < vmlemon_> Aah

[14:38] < ms-afk> That post/recall would normally case the message to be deleted by the exchange server.

[14:39] < vmlemon_> Sounds fun

[14:39] < ms-afk> If it wasn't a mailing list

[14:39] < vmlemon_> Good point

[14:39] < ms-afk> It relies on everyone using Microsoft crap as well

[14:39] < ms-afk> (crap == broken extensions to standard protocols)

[14:56] *** ms-afk has parted #kamaelia

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[15:58] < Davbo> Terminal is so much cooler when you set it to green text on black background

[15:58] < Davbo> Maybe I'm just simple minded

[15:58] < Davbo> ;-)

[15:59] *** Davbo bets you're all setting your terminals to look like that

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[17:22] *** Davbo must admit Django's admin interface is exceptional

[17:38] < Davbo> Lawouach: is that chap from WebFaction online?

[17:38] < Lawouach> hmm

[17:38] < Lawouach> probably not at this hour

[17:38] < Lawouach> What did they tell you?

[17:39] < Lawouach> yeah he's away on MSN

[17:39] < Lawouach> probably at the pub :)

[17:39] < Davbo> Next, I need you to go into the WebFaction control panel (https://panel.webfaction.com) and then go to "Account --> Payment sources" and try to add your card there.

[17:39] < Davbo> is what they said

[17:40] < Davbo> I did try but got the same response, I assume it's piped through PayPal also

[17:40] < Lawouach> dang

[17:40] < Lawouach> Well let them know about it

[17:40] < Davbo> I've replied, guess I'll just wait

[17:40] < Lawouach> They have almost 24/7 support

[17:40] < Lawouach> so you might get someone

[17:40] < Davbo> I was thinking he might be online now thinking they were mostly US

[17:40] < Lawouach> Remi is in London

[17:40] < Davbo> oh cool.

[17:40] < Davbo> :-)

[17:40] < Lawouach> He lives there :)

[17:41] < Lawouach> though until the end of September he's actually in France

[17:42] < Davbo> I can sort something out with my brother if I have to, so they'll get paid somehow :-)

[17:43] < Davbo> Also, I don't think I can refer you because I used a promo code unfortunately

[17:43] < Lawouach> no worries :)

[17:43] < Lawouach> you did well

[17:44] < Davbo> Really happy I held out a bit longer on registering

[17:50] < Davbo> Right, back later chaps.

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