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[12:28] < ms-> that's better

[12:28] < ms-> Did I miss anything?

[12:29] *** ms- guesses not based on the tumbleweek

[12:29] < ms-> tumbleweed even

[12:30] < Chong-> hey ms-

[12:31] < ms-> hm. odd. In this browser I can see the top of the bottom line

[12:31] < ms-> ...

[12:31] < ms-> but can't see the line unless I hit return a couple of times

[12:31] < ms-> heya chong

[12:32] < Chong-> interesting :-)

[12:32] < Chong-> ms-: have you found any new bugs of TopologyViewer3D? :-)

[12:33] < ms-> Nope, not had a chance I'm afraid

[12:33] < ms-> Would be nice to have the equivalent of key repeat though

[12:34] < ms-> Perhaps also the idea of a quasi-key

[12:34] < ms-> ie when you (say) hold down shift or control, that then clicking and draging either rotates the object or moves it in space

[12:34] < ms-> a bit like some of thf's examples do

[12:35] < ms-> That's less of a bug report and more of a feature request

[12:35] < Davbo> Stupid Python being too clever, letting me address x[-1] in a list where len(x) == 2

[12:36] < ms-> ...

[12:36] < ms-> heh

[12:36] < Chong-> ms-: do you mean the behaviour like thf's button example?

[12:36] < ms-> cool

[12:36] < ms-> ...

[12:36] < ms-> There's a few examples he does like that

[12:36] < Davbo> didn't you know that ms-? :-)

[12:36] < ms-> There's a particular fun one in scratch that I don't remember

[12:37] < ms-> Davbo: I know about negative indices

[12:37] < ms-> ...

[12:37] < ms-> also stuff like X[-3:] is really useful

[12:38] < ms-> since it tends to work even with empty lists :)

[12:38] < Davbo> Yeah, i see it's useful. Just not here :-) ("ms-: cool" - assumed it was new to you)

[12:40] < Chong-> ms-: how can -3 work with empty lists? :-)

[12:42] < Davbo> >>> x = [4,4,4,4,4,4,4]

[12:42] < Davbo> >>> x[-3:]

[12:42] < Davbo> [4, 4, 4]

[12:42] < Davbo> >>> x = []

[12:42] < Davbo> >>> x[-3:]

[12:42] < Davbo> []

[12:42] < Davbo> doesn't throw an error when it's empty Chong-

[12:43] < Chong-> I see, X[-3] doesn't work, but X[-3:] does work :-)

[12:43] < Davbo> Yeah, because it returns a list of things from -3 to the end of the list. which is == []

[12:43] < Davbo> iirc

[12:44] < Chong-> yes, on the other hannd, X[3:] also works :-)

[12:44] *** Davbo nods

[12:44] *** ms- types something to see next line...

[12:45] < Davbo> what's up ms-?

[12:45] < ms-> ?

[12:45] < ms-> Ah

[12:45] < ms-> using mibbit since somewhere I'm usually not

[12:45] < ms-> and only around for a bit

[12:45] < ms-> this type in box at the bottom,

[12:45] < Davbo> ah, it's a bit rubbish at times

[12:45] < ms-> actually covers up the last line typed

[12:45] < ms-> which is a bit naff

[12:46] < Davbo> Heh.

[12:50] < Lawouach_> afternoon boys

[12:51] < Chong-> hey Lawouach_

[12:53] < vmlemon> Hi

[12:53] < Davbo> Hey Lawouach_

[12:57] < ms-> Lawouach_: afternoon

[12:57] < ms-> .

[12:58] < Lawouach_> Pablo's latest messages give a lot to think about

[12:59] < Lawouach_> shame he didn't do that from the start but it's very positive nonetheless

[12:59] < Lawouach_> He has good ideas.

[13:01] < ms-> ..

[13:02] < ms-> He has some interesting ideas, but I'm concerned at the comment (which I don't have to hand) where he says "and this is what I'm going to do"

[13:02] < ms-> since there's been nowhere near enough requirements gathering yet

[13:02] < ms-> that said, I've not seen email today

[13:04] < Lawouach_> He replied to the private email rather than to the list to get approval. Regarding the this is what "I'm going to do" bit, I think that's safe to assume we need code and showcase to discuss the options further anyway.

[13:04] < Lawouach_> We can't keep it theorotical.

[13:04] < Lawouach_> His wording probably needs just a reminder from your part that we are still under discussion.

[13:05] < ms-> No, we can't keep it theoretical

[13:05] < Lawouach_> His samples have helped me so far in understanding about his "HOW". :)

[13:05] < ms-> But the problem I have is that I've still not seen an example which I can actually digest quickly

[13:05] < Lawouach_> I'm nopt a big fan about Mock objects for instance :)

[13:05] < ms-> At.

[13:05] < Lawouach_> Very true

[13:06] < ms-> No, mock objects don't actually make any sense in kamaelia really as far as I'm concerned

[13:06] < Lawouach_> He's verbose to say the list. But it's more readable now :)

[13:06] < ms-> except in some very limited circumstances

[13:06] < ms-> .

[13:07] < ms-> The problem with long mails like that is you're likely to get "colour of the bikeshed discussions" really

[13:07] < Lawouach_> Yeah :(

[13:07] < ms-> There's also an implicit assumption that any particular syntax is better than another, which I don't agree with

[13:07] < ms-> The real thing shuold be

[13:07] < mhrd> would be good to see some short rapid iterations and some shorter less formal emails/chats - eg. "how about this?"

[13:08] < ms-> Build something that doesn't depend on anyutyhing else to test the echoer, and start from there

[13:08] < ms-> mhrd: precisely

[13:08] < mhrd> rather than "gathering requirements ... thanks for your feedback etc"

[13:08] < mhrd> however, its still *good* that he's doing stuff

[13:08] < ms-> actually discuss the issues rather than capture the first words spoken as formal requiremnts...

[13:08] < ms-> But it is progress :-)

[13:08] < ms-> Which is reassuring :)

[13:09] < mhrd> yep - definitely. Good progress, but perhaps still a little too formal :-)

[13:09] < Lawouach_> Fair point but I think 1) he is really careful now considering how we pushed back recently and 2) it's not his "style" and we have to teach him that. I can appreciate it being tough on him.

[13:09] < ms-> .

[13:09] < ms-> .

[13:09] < mhrd> Lawouach_ : indeed

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[13:09] < ms-> Likewise, it's a good start. Any comments I'm saying are intended to be taken as maybe useful. If it's useful, use it, if it isn't don't

[13:09] < ms-> .

[13:10] < Lawouach_> :)

[13:11] < ms-> If the examples had been brief enough to put in a mail and discussed there I'd've been able to read and think about them on trains today

[13:11] < ms-> but they weren't so I can't

[13:11] < ms-> also, I'm not fighting networks & machines here to get them off today

[13:12] < ms-> largely because that's more pain that I want right this instant, and that's not pablo's fault :)

[13:12] < ms-> .

[13:17] < Chong-> ms-: I think I have found the one you think particular fun in thf's scratch :-)

[13:17] < Chong-> Is it simplecube_controlled.py?

[13:17] < Chong-> That's pretty cool :-)

[13:36] < ms-> Chong-: Maybe

[13:36] < ms-> there's one with a cube

[13:36] < ms-> a magnadoodle

[13:36] < ms-> a cat

[13:36] < ms-> a sky/grass background

[13:36] < ms-> and stuff

[13:36] < ms-> oh and a ticker

[13:36] < ms-> (could be called something like pygame test)

[13:37] < ms-> but the one you point at may be simialr

[13:37] < ms-> anyway, that's probably OK

[13:37] < ms-> Trun: I've replied to one mail of yours

[13:37] < ms-> hopefully useful

[13:37] < ms-> summary: your requirements from people are a good start, but nowhere near what you need

[13:38] < ms-> largely because people are still asking you for what they think is possible

[13:38] < ms-> rather than what they need

[13:38] < ms-> (which isn't your fault, but you need to know it)

[13:38] < ms-> You also need to push for better requirements

[13:39] < ms-> The other aspect is to point at/agree with the last thing you listed to do - ie write something small and simple

[13:39] < ms-> which doesn't use a framework

[13:39] < ms-> etc

[13:39] *** Lawouach_ sees that ms- uses Twitter to track Jason's work. Rather trendy are ya?

[13:39] < ms-> .

[13:39] < ms-> heh

[13:39] < ms-> he added me as a follower

[13:39] < ms-> and he mentioned something about HTTP being easier to debug in XMPP

[13:39] < ms-> so it seemed relevant

[13:40] < ms-> probably one of the few relevant things I've seen on twitter so far :-P

[13:40] < Chong-> ms-: yes. I just saw other examples. It would be interesting to add to Topology3D. Thanks for your suggestion :-).

[13:44] *** ms- heads off

[13:44] < ms-> back later

[13:44] < ms-> cya all :)

[13:44] < mhrd> "one of the few relevant things I've seen on twitter" ... something relevant/useful to do with twitter? I'll believe it when I see it :-P

[13:48] < Lawouach_> hah!

[13:49] < mhrd> :-P

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[16:10] < j_baker> You know, when I signed up for the Web SIG, I seemed to figure that I would be receiving lots of great technical discussion. Instead, I get days and days of pointless arguing.

[16:11] < vmlemon> Wow, it looks like we've got our first piece of spam on kamaelia-list

[16:12] < vmlemon> from "Nice Guy" (royalkings.9@rediffmail.com)

[16:12] < Davbo> Yeah

[16:13] *** vmlemon is tempted to sign that address up for crap, but assumes that it's a spoofed address

[16:13] < Davbo> he's not a nice guy at all. :-(

[16:13] < vmlemon> Hehe

[16:15] < Davbo> Must be some kind of Google Groups bot because you can't just post without joining right?

[16:15] < Davbo> Actually I'm not sure..

[16:15] < vmlemon> Good question :(

[16:15] < Davbo> http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?hl=en&enc_user=fAgaCRsAAADJbOw646VcXZhmMrqJJ6No4Yo_GiaV5qePtWRRj8U8jg

[16:15] < Davbo> Haha

[16:15] < Davbo> Recent Activity

[16:16] < Davbo> Reported him

[16:16] < Davbo> dunno if it will do anything.

[16:17] < vmlemon> Hah, I like the comment in the reply to Pablo about building an information transmission system

[16:18] < Davbo> Indeed, I believe that was influenced by our friend Nice Guy

[16:18] < Davbo> (I assume you mean the comment about the engineer 100 years ago)

[16:19] < vmlemon> Yes

[16:20] < Davbo> s/influenced/inspired

[16:21] < vmlemon> Shame there isn't a postal address in it (I contemplated signing them up for free AOL CDs or HPUG junk mail) ;)

[16:26] < vmlemon> Free can of everyone's favourite cheap meat when you join today!

[16:39] < vmlemon> Hah, http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php/id;282200690

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[16:57] < j_baker> That article is seriously awesome vmlemon

[17:04] *** vmlemon thinks Windows seems more than overkill for displaying a big, green arrow

[17:07] < vmlemon> Meh, "Your Membership Number is not in our database or is incorrect. Please check with your Chapter to insure it is correct and they have updated us. Sorry for any inconvenience."

[17:15] < ian_brasil> hi..is there some reason (other than 'lots of other things to do') why Kamaelia and Axon don't have .debs to install?

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[17:22] < j_baker> You can actually make a deb, ian_brasil. Hold on a sec and I'll see if I can find it for you.

[17:24] < ian_brasil> j_baker:something just flew past in an svn checkout of the branches so maybe it is in one of these

[17:25] < j_baker> Yeah, there's a script under /trunk/Code/Python/Releases/Support for building an Axon and a Kamaelia deb.

[17:25] < ian_brasil> nice..thx

[17:25] < j_baker> Unfortunately, I don't know how good that script is. It appears to have not been modified in two years. :(

[17:26] < ian_brasil> thats ok..it is a start anyway

[17:26] < Davbo> Hey all.

[17:28] < j_baker> ian_brasil: if you get anything better written, let us know. I'm sure ms- will be more than happy to include any improvements in the trunk.

[17:28] < j_baker> Hello Davbo

[17:29] < Davbo> deb isn't the nicest way to distribute python code most of the time ian_brasil

[17:29] < ian_brasil> j_baker: sure, no problem

[17:29] < Davbo> you can do it but, more trouble than it's worth, IMO.

[17:30] < Davbo> (although i only looked at it for a short time)

[17:30] < ian_brasil> Davbo: i dunno, just a few cdbs rules and call python setup.py install nad you are away :)

[17:30] < j_baker> I think that may change after Python 3.0. I think they're planning on including a bdist_deb command in distutils.

[17:31] < ian_brasil> yeah, i heard something about this too

[17:33] < j_baker> It would be really helpful. As it stands right now, it's just easier for me to make an RPM and alien it into a deb. But that's obviously not a good way to distribute the app.

[17:34] < Davbo> Go for it ian_brasil :-)

[17:34] < Davbo> if that's how easy it is, I was reading the wrong thing ;-)

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[18:14] < j_baker> Nobody would happen to know of any good Gnome VPN software would they?

[18:18] < Lawouach> nope

[18:20] < vmlemon> There's supposedly support for several types of VPN in NetworkManager(?), if I remember correctly

[18:45] < j_baker> I'll check that out vmlemon

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[20:12] < MS-> evening

[20:13] < MS-> The reason there's no recent .debs is simple

[20:13] < MS-> I don't use a debian based system

[20:13] < MS-> Tried both debian and ubuntu several times over the past 11 years, and debian just made me wonder "why am I flagellating myself this way, I could use a distribution that just works".

[20:14] < MS-> Ubuntu has been improving, and not tried their most recent version, but having seen people screaming at it trying to do things that I "just do an it works fine" under open suse 10.3, I see *very little* incentive to move

[20:16] < MS-> So it's more than just a "not enough time or tuits", it's actually a "if they sort their shit out, I'll use it, and stuff will appear". If someone else does it and offers to maintain them though that'd be utterly utterly fantastic :)

[20:17] < MS-> as a result this comment:

[20:17] < MS-> [17:28] < j_baker> ian_brasil: if you get anything better written, let us know. I'm sure ms- will be more than happy to include any improvements in the trunk.

[20:17] < MS-> Is utterly correct in pretty much every way :)

[20:18] *** MS- didn't see the spam before writing that message to pablo fwiw

[20:19] < MS-> (I was using a machine that went ping saying "You have new email" every 2 seconds. Of course in practice it would've been more accurate to say "you have new spam!" :) )

[20:26] < MS-> hmm. I hate it when flash kills my browser

[20:27] < MS-> sucks to be adobe

[20:27] < j_baker> Much as I hate to admit it, Silverlight seems to be a better product. I have yet to try it on Linux though.

[20:28] < MS-> Not seen anything that requires it, nor that would encourage me to seek out whether/if I wanted ti run it

[20:31] < j_baker> Yeah. You'll see uses for it if you ever develop anything in C#. Microsoft's website constantly pesters you to try out the new Silverlight version of i.

[20:31] < j_baker> it even

[20:32] < MS-> I see

[20:33] *** MS- has never written a single line of c#

[20:33] < j_baker> You're not missing much.

[20:33] < MS-> Didn't particularly look like it :)

[20:33] < j_baker> Although I should admit, it's actually pulled a lot of features from python.

[20:34] < j_baker> Like the yield statement is almost cut and pasted from python.

[20:34] < j_baker> It's just a matter of how much code it takes to do something in c# versus python.

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[21:25] *** vmlemon hands MS- the moon on a stick, as requested earlier ;)

[21:41] < MS-> ta

[21:42] < vmlemon> Free bag of tuits, too

[21:42] < vmlemon> ;)

[21:42] < MS-> heh

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[21:53] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: dance

[21:53] Reply: does the macarena

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[22:02] < Chong-> MS-: just added mouse motion rotation function. Do you have time to try it? :-)

[22:06] *** MS- does an svn update

[22:06] < Chong-> MS-: cool :-)

[22:08] < MS-> ooh, very shiny

[22:08] < MS-> If you select a thing, the rotation rotates the thing

[22:08] < Chong-> MS-: thanks :-)

[22:08] < MS-> otherwise you rotate the whole thing

[22:08] < Chong-> yes

[22:08] < MS-> That really is nice :)

[22:09] < Chong-> Glad to hear it :-)

[22:10] < MS-> I think the other "obvious" thing to add in regarding this would be "holding down a key that causes rotation, makes the thing continue rotating"

[22:10] < MS-> as well as "zero the rotation angles"

[22:10] < MS-> very nice work though

[22:11] < Chong-> Do you mean just holding keys without mouse motion?

[22:11] < Chong-> thanks :-)

[22:11] < MS-> Well, with the normal topology viewer

[22:11] < MS-> you can scroll around the 2D surface using the cursor keys

[22:11] < vmlemon_> Musical paint app! ;)

[22:11] < Chong-> got it.

[22:12] < MS-> when you do so, holding down the cursor keys makes the movement continue

[22:12] < MS-> so same principle really

[22:12] < Chong-> orphans had suggested me to do it. I have not got time yet. it would be very nice.

[22:12] < MS-> cool

[22:12] < Chong-> :-)

[22:13] < MS-> Once you're at that stage, my suggestion would be to post to the list, explain what it does, how to get it running and ask for feedback

[22:13] < MS-> especially with regard to a wish list

[22:13] < MS-> I think you should perhaps also start thinking about 2 particular things

[22:13] < MS-> 3 things

[22:13] < Chong-> MS-: yes, good idea. :-)

[22:14] < MS-> 1) how to model hierarchies - do you "dive inside a node" or "example the node inside a box"

[22:14] < MS-> both have advantages

[22:15] < MS-> 2) How to deal with custom particles - in practical terms this means actually showing how to do this

[22:15] < MS-> that should be relatively simple IMO

[22:15] < MS-> eg spheres, stars, teapots (since teapots are easy in open gl :-)

[22:15] < Chong-> cool :-)

[22:16] < MS-> 3) Looking at the "storing relationships stuff - eg FOAF data - in a database", and what you'd think components that deal with that would spit out

[22:16] < Chong-> What does "example the node inside a box" mean?

[22:16] < MS-> specifically with an aim for visualising those things

[22:17] < MS-> Oh, that's me speaking complete garbage

[22:17] < MS-> sorry

[22:17] < vmlemon_> Hmm, wasn't the teapot the "first" demonstrated OpenGL model?

[22:17] < MS-> vmlemon_: yep - it's history goes waaaaay back :)

[22:17] < MS-> "example the node inside a box" should read

[22:17] < MS-> "example the nodes that logically sit inside the box"

[22:18] < MS-> eg if you have a node that logically has a graph/topology sitting inside it

[22:18] < Chong-> So it should be a classic :-)

[22:18] < MS-> Oh for crying out loud, I really can't type tonight

[22:18] < MS-> "EXPAND the nodes that logically sit inside the box"

[22:18] < MS-> eg if you have a node that logically has a graph/topology sitting inside it

[22:18] < MS-> clicking on it could either:

[22:18] < MS-> replace the entire topology with the contents

[22:18] < MS-> OR

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[22:19] < MS-> replace that single box with another box containing that topology

[22:19] < MS-> there, hopefully that's a bit less like garbage

[22:19] < vmlemon_> The QuickDraw 3D "red, yellow and blue 'Q' with a car window knob on the tail" comes to mind here, for some reason

[22:19] < Chong-> MS-: I see. the difference of the two is in whether all data are produced at the beginning or not. right?

[22:20] < vmlemon_> (No, it wasn't called that, although it looked like that)

[22:20] < MS-> Chong-: ?

[22:20] < MS-> No

[22:21] < MS-> Let me pretend that IRC == 1D topology vis for a moment...

[22:21] < Chong-> I think I may understand but not very sure :-)

[22:21] < MS-> We could have a pipeline

[22:21] < MS-> [ A --- B --- C ]

[22:21] < Chong-> cool

[22:21] < MS-> B may itself be a pipeline [ X --- Y --- Z ]

[22:22] < MS-> Now, if we click on B in [ A --- B --- C ]

[22:22] < MS-> That could either cause us to "zoom in" and have the display replaced with

[22:22] < MS-> [ X --- Y --- Z ]

[22:22] < MS-> OR

[22:22] < MS-> it could cause B to be replaced, so the display would be

[22:22] *** vmlemon_ thinks a Kamaelia VRML client might be interesting

[22:23] < MS-> [ A --- [ X --- Y --- Z ] --- C ]

[22:23] < Chong-> I see what you mean.

[22:23] < MS-> cool

[22:23] < Chong-> Thanks for your explanation :-)

[22:23] < MS-> I'd pick "whichever seems easiest" first

[22:23] < MS-> Which I suspect is the [ A --- B --- C ] replaced by [ X --- Y --- Z ] version

[22:24] < Chong-> I agree.

[22:24] < Chong-> but I think the difference in difficulty may not very big :-)

[22:24] < MS-> However the way you're handling spinning etc, may actually simplify the [ A --- [ X --- Y --- Z ] --- C ] as well

[22:24] < Chong-> yes.

[22:25] < MS-> Other stuff you need to do of course includes cleaning up how it handles parsing

[22:25] < MS-> since the parser is currently very fragile and can easily crash the viewer

[22:25] < Chong-> yep

[22:25] < MS-> But that's a relatively minor detail

[22:26] < MS-> regarding "2" 2 sets of possible particles types to consider (beyond just "shapes")

[22:26] < MS-> would be Axon components and ER components

[22:27] *** vmlemon_ wonders what would be involved in writing a wire protocol compatible, drop-in MSN Messenger server in Kamaelia...

[22:27] < MS-> (These don't have to match what we currently have, the idea is to show usecases)

[22:27] < vmlemon_> *drop-in replacement

[22:27] < MS-> vmlemon_: Writing the protocol really

[22:27] < Chong-> yes

[22:28] < MS-> Chong-: However, it'd be really cool for you to come up with the particle types or direction you want for these things

[22:28] < MS-> Since that's far better

[22:28] < Chong-> cool :-)

[22:29] < MS-> If you want to have little models of people with thumbnails of faces plastered over the "head" for visualising FOAF data, that'd be cool

[22:29] < MS-> Or whatever :)

[22:29] < MS-> you could probably have a fair amount of fun with that :)

[22:29] < Chong-> yes. That would be nice to see hundrends of people on particles :-)

[22:30] < Chong-> yep

[22:31] < MS-> The idea of the axon stuff though (even if you're not matching the visuals) has a very real reason behind it

[22:31] < MS-> It would allow you to test dropping your code into a an existing real system and seeing how it fares with real data

[22:31] < MS-> You'd also be the first person to see a kamaelia system in 3D :)

[22:31] < Chong-> cool :-)

[22:33] < Chong-> and I hope it could also help people get to know kamaelia system

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[22:35] < MS-> Visualisation often helps

[22:35] < MS-> Whether 2D or 3D is better is currently debateable because we don't have the latter

[22:35] < MS-> if we did, we wouldn't need to debate, we could just find out :)

[22:36] < MS-> It would almost certainly make people go OOOOOoooOOOooh *shiny*

[22:36] < MS-> though

[22:36] < MS-> which is always fun :)

[22:36] < Chong-> cool :-)

[22:45] < MS-> Oh, also, rotation about the z axis would be nice too :)

[22:46] < MS-> x & y get you so far

[22:46] < MS-> but z is handy too

[22:46] < MS-> :)

[22:47] < MS-> Oh, found it

[22:47] < Chong-> MS-: yes :-)

[22:47] < Chong-> , and .

[22:47] < MS-> In which case perhaps ctrl + shift together == x & z or y & z vs x&y ?

[22:48] *** MS- leaves you to it - you're making good progress :)

[22:49] < Chong-> MS-: if with mouse motion, they could do together :-)

[22:49] < Chong-> MS-: thanks :-)

[23:08] < Chong-> cannot resist sleepy. have to leave other problems to tomorrow :/

[23:08] < Chong-> Night MS-, vmlemon_ and others.

[23:09] *** Chong- has parted #kamaelia

[23:09] < vmlemon_> Nigh

[23:09] < vmlemon_> *Nighj

[23:09] < vmlemon_> argh, I can't type properly at the moment

[23:25] *** MS- sleeps

[23:25] *** MS- has parted #kamaelia