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[09:34] < orphans> aa_, have a look at DataSource (http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/Components/pydoc/Kamaelia.Util.DataSource.html) and OneShot (http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/Components/pydoc/Kamaelia.Util.OneShot.html) - I think one of them will do what you want it to

[09:40] < Lawouach> hello orphans

[09:40] < Lawouach> how is it going?

[09:41] < orphans> morning, not too bad ta

[09:41] < orphans> trying to write a funding application and failing miserably :)

[09:43] < orphans> but currently my life seems to consist mainly of trying to write reports/applications/personal statements and failing miserably. I'm going to finish this one this morning, and I'm not having lunch til it's done :)

[09:43] < orphans> how about you?

[09:44] < Lawouach> ah well. I had a lovely quiet weekend which I needed

[09:44] < Lawouach> Coded a bunch nonetheless :)

[09:45] < orphans> :) cool

[09:45] < orphans> you still working on crazy xmpp stuff?

[09:50] *** Uraeus has joined #kamaelia

[09:51] < Lawouach> yeah

[09:52] < Lawouach> I've started a PyQt lib that maps headstock and PyQt

[09:52] < Lawouach> Makes it easier to write XMPP gui application based on PyQt

[09:52] < Lawouach> rather cool

[09:53] < Lawouach> I also coded a few stuff for a O'Reilly book a friend of mine is writing

[09:53] < Lawouach> Head First Programming book actually

[09:53] < orphans> ahh yeah, I remember seeing you posted a bit of code for the QT stuff

[09:53] < orphans> what's the book on?

[09:54] < orphans> or would you have to kill me?

[09:57] < Lawouach> http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596514181/index.html#top < -- that's the one although it's not the author that they suggest

[09:57] < Lawouach> I'm rather confused :)

[09:57] < Lawouach> anyhow

[09:57] < Lawouach> The book is using Python

[09:58] < orphans> cool :)

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[10:25] < Chong-> mhrd-afk: I have changed the rotation behavior and fixed the link problem. Please have a check if it does what you suggested when you get time. Thanks.

[10:39] < Chong-> Just remembered, because the trunk hasn't been changed, you need to find gluPickMatrix(pos[0], self.height-pos[1], 1, 1) in kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Kamaelia/UI/OpenGL/OpenGLDisplay.py

[10:41] < Chong-> and replace it with gluPickMatrix(pos[0], self.height-pos[1], 1, 1, glGetIntegerv(GL_VIEWPORT)) so that you can use your mouse to pick objects. It works for orphans.

[10:42] < orphans> and if it's good enough for me... :D

[10:43] < Chong-> orphans: thanks a lot :-)

[10:48] < Chong-> orphans: * a --- viewer position move left * d --- viewer position move right * w --- viewer position move up * s --- viewer position move down * pgup --- viewer position move forward * pgdn --- viewer position move backward * left --- particles rotate to left around y axis * right --- particles rotate to right around y axis * up --- particles rotate to up around x axis * down --- particles rotate to down around x axis <

[10:49] < orphans> ohh, only knew about udlr - I'll try it out now

[10:50] < Chong-> not in a hurry :-)

[10:50] < orphans> works well :)

[10:51] < orphans> can you get it so you can press and hold the buttons and it'll keep going?

[10:52] < Chong-> That's a good idea. thanks. It should be not hard.

[10:53] < Chong-> And you can also drag and drop, add new/delete old nodes and links through console.

[10:54] < orphans> yeah, it's looking really cool :)

[10:54] < Chong-> orphans: thanks :-). any other suggestions to improve?

[10:56] < orphans> get that thing scraping databases - I want to see millions of names flying around my head :D

[10:57] < Chong-> cool :-)

[11:13] < vmlemon_> Hi

[11:20] < aa_> orphans: thanks

[11:21] < orphans> aa_, np, if you have any other questions post them up and I'm sure someone will have a shot at answering them :)

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[11:22] < mhrd-home> greetings ... anyone know if MS- is coming online today?

[11:22] < aa_> orphans: ok, will do

[11:22] < orphans> aa_, if no-one's around the mailing list is good too (http://groups.google.com/group/kamaelia)

[11:23] < orphans> mhrd-home, hey, sorry, no idea

[11:23] < aa_> orphans: at the moment kamaelia is cool, but I can't think of anything to use it for

[11:23] < mhrd-home> orphans: ta

[11:24] < orphans> aa_, the next time you need something writing (just something simple even - a quick hack) try it out - it takes a bit of getting your head around but is really nice to use

[11:25] < aa_> orphans: right

[11:25] < aa_> orphans: the thing slightly reminds me of erlang

[11:26] < orphans> mhm, I think that's deliberate in places

[11:26] *** orphans knows nothing about erlang

[11:26] < orphans> it gets mentioned quite a lot though :)

[11:27] < aa_> well its strong on message passing, let's just say that

[11:28] < orphans> http://yeoldeclue.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.cgi?rm=viewpost&nodeid=1215258472 - that says a little bit about it (and is interesting too)

[11:31] < aa_> orphans: yeah its michael's recent blogging blitz that reminded me about kamaelia

[11:31] < aa_> but really it did take me 3 times of downloading and playing to get it

[11:32] < orphans> yeah, it's very different for 'traditional' python programming

[11:33] < orphans> I'm one of the SoC students, so it's all I've been writing for the past couple of months - I think I'm going to find it really hard to change back to OO thinking if/when I need to

[11:34] < Lawouach> :)

[11:35] < orphans> Lawouach, I had to think really hard what a normal python program might look like the other day. It was a very strange experience :)

[11:35] < Lawouach> I bet

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[11:46] < Lawouach> orphans: I'll be looking at your application later on today

[11:46] < Lawouach> may I expect sound? :)

[11:46] < Lawouach> or even better, music? :)

[11:46] < orphans> yeah, you should do :)

[11:47] < orphans> (depending on how much Pure Data likes your PC really)

[11:47] < Davbo> Hey guys

[11:48] < Lawouach> orphans: okay. Could you describe me step by step how I may run three instances of your application so that they interact with each other?

[11:48] < Lawouach> Bonjour Davbo

[11:48] < Davbo> Salut Lawouach :-)

[11:48] < Lawouach> ;)

[11:48] < orphans> Lawouach, first go from the quick start guide (/Sketches/JT/Jam/docs/getting_started.txt) for making sound, and let me know if you get stuck

[11:49] < Lawouach> okay

[11:49] < orphans> oh, and I'll quickly post up three lines to start it up with so you get three talking

[11:49] < Lawouach> cool

[11:49] *** orphans checks that it's still working :D

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[11:52] < Lawouach> hello MS-

[11:52] < MS-> Afternoon

[11:52] < orphans> Lawouach, python jam

[11:53] < orphans> python jam -p 3001 --remote-address=127.0.0.1 --remote-port=2001 --listen-port=2002

[11:53] < MS-> Chong-: Heya - just been playing with your new version - have another test case that breaks your current version.

[11:53] < orphans> python jam -p 3002 --remote-address=127.0.0.1 --remote-port=2002 --listen-port=2003

[11:53] < MS-> (as an fyi if you're around)

[11:53] < orphans> MS-, mhrd was looking for you earlier

[11:53] < Lawouach> orphans: ta

[11:54] < orphans> [12:23] < mhrd-home> greetings ... anyone know if MS- is coming online today?

[11:54] < MS-> ah ta

[11:55] < orphans> Lawouach, MS-, np :)

[11:55] < MS-> Chong-: FYI - it looks like your rotation around the X axis is out of sync

[11:55] < Davbo> Thank you MS-, your fix was spot on :-)

[11:55] < MS-> For objects rotated around the Y axis it's fine

[11:55] < MS-> Davbo: cool

[11:55] < Lawouach> rather cool to see both bouncing balls :)

[11:56] < Davbo> (I wasn't aware of that syntax)

[11:56] < MS-> Chong-: ie you can move stuff around, and when rotated left or right with left/right arrow keys the left/right rotation around the Y axis looks about right (though it is odd that the centre of rotation is centred on the objects, not on the field of view

[11:57] < Lawouach> orphans: weird, when I just called "jam" without parameters I can see the yellow beat moving

[11:57] < MS-> (or rather centred on Node1)

[11:57] < Lawouach> with the parameters I don't see it

[11:58] < MS-> However your rotations around the X axis (eg to look like it's rolling away from you)

[11:58] < orphans> that's strange - it works here

[11:58] < orphans> let me check whether there's something I've not checked in yet

[11:58] < Lawouach> orphans: also I assume I need to ensure my MIDI output works well (can't hear a sound right now)

[11:58] < orphans> Lawouach, oop, my bad

[11:58] < MS-> have a mistake - in that the /position/ of the objects is correct - ie they are correctly rotated around the global X axis

[11:58] < orphans> Lawouach, no it doesn't use midi yet

[11:58] < MS-> However the individual objects are rotating around a /local/ X axis as well

[11:58] < MS-> which means they're not doing the right thing

[11:59] < Chong-> Hey MS-

[11:59] < MS-> Heya

[11:59] < Lawouach> orphans: could you explain how I should be setting my environment to hear something? even noise would be good ;)

[11:59] < orphans> Lawouach, it talks to PD using OSC atm, the midi stuff will be after I have all the basics in place

[11:59] < MS-> The easiest way to see that in action, is add a collection of objects

[12:00] < MS-> and link them

[12:00] < MS-> then turn them using either left or right

[12:00] < MS-> so you can only see the ends

[12:00] < orphans> right, first of all you need PD extended (from http://puredata.info/downloads)

[12:00] < MS-> and then to tumble them forwards or backwards using up/down

[12:00] < MS-> and then to watch what Node1 is doing

[12:01] < orphans> Lawouach, it's basically just PD with a collection of extra objects packaged up (including the OSC ones which you need)

[12:01] < Chong-> currently, I change the position to the destination position and then rotate it around local axis when do rotating

[12:01] < MS-> It's particularly stark with this:

[12:01] < MS-> http://pastebin.org/48998

[12:01] < Lawouach> orphans: I got that from your doc but I still don't quite get how to set my environment up to be honest

[12:01] < MS-> Which is a hexagonal shape in a star formation

[12:01] < Lawouach> I can download it but then what?

[12:01] < MS-> star topology

[12:02] < Lawouach> until now I looked at the code you wrote and it is good. I'd like to start using the application now :)

[12:02] < orphans> Lawouach, then if you run pd Sketches/JT/Jam/application/trunk/PD/PureJam.pd

[12:02] < MS-> Chong-: What I'm saying is what you're doing appears correct for the Y axis, but incorrect for X

[12:02] < orphans> Lawouach, it should open up the PD sketch which lets it all work

[12:03] < Lawouach> so I open up the PureJam.pd with "pd", then start jam

[12:03] < Chong-> MS-: got it. It seems Node1 is over rotated, right?

[12:03] < Lawouach> that's it?

[12:03] < orphans> s/lets it all work/turns the OSC messages into sound

[12:03] < orphans> Lawouach, should be - you might need to mess with the audio settings in PD

[12:03] < Lawouach> k

[12:04] < orphans> Lawouach, but you shouldn't need to do anything else

[12:04] < Lawouach> Hmm my ubuntu has pd 0.40, your link offers 0.39.3

[12:04] < MS-> Chong-: No, Node1 is the obvious one to watch

[12:04] < Lawouach> interesting

[12:04] < MS-> However, start up your topology viewer

[12:04] < Lawouach> ah okay

[12:04] < MS-> ~/kamaelia/trunk/Sketches/CL/Topology3D/Utils> ./TopologyViewer3D.py

[12:04] < Lawouach> not pd-extended

[12:04] < Lawouach> sorry

[12:05] < MS-> Chong-: Then paste http://pastebin.org/48998

[12:05] < MS-> As a topology

[12:05] < MS-> Then do the following

[12:05] < orphans> Lawouach, yeah. Really you only need PD and two externals (like extra objects) from PD's svn, but the easiest way to get it is just to install pd-extended

[12:05] < MS-> "left, left, left, left, up, up, up, up"

[12:06] < Lawouach> orphans: doing so

[12:06] *** Chong- trying

[12:06] < MS-> then memorise the position/orientation of what you're seeing

[12:06] < Davbo> Whoa i've sent the TopologyViewer3D insane

[12:07] < MS-> Then go back to the start by doing

[12:07] < MS-> down,down,down,down, right,right,right,right

[12:07] < MS-> then do

[12:07] < MS-> "up, up, up, up,left, left, left, left"

[12:08] < Davbo> KSnapshot might be in order MS- ;-)

[12:08] < MS-> You'll note that with your system:

[12:08] < MS-> "left, left, left, left, up, up, up, up" != "up, up, up, up,left, left, left, left"

[12:08] < MS-> But if you pick up a book and do:

[12:08] < MS-> rotate-90-about-Y-axis, rotate-90-about-X-axis

[12:08] < MS-> or : rotate-90-about-X-axis, rotate-90-about-Y-axis

[12:08] < MS-> that:

[12:08] < MS-> rotate-90-about-Y-axis, rotate-90-about-X-axis == rotate-90-about-X-axis, rotate-90-about-Y-axis

[12:09] < MS-> essentially you're doing something wrong for rotation about X-Axis

[12:09] < MS-> the fact that it's centred on Node1 strikes me as a symptom

[12:09] < MS-> Since you're not rotating relative to the centre of the system

[12:10] < MS-> (also, I suspect that you're rotating the objects, rather than the view of the objects)

[12:10] < MS-> The latter is quicker than the former

[12:10] < Davbo> I've got the topolgyviewer doing some mad vibration thing too btw Chong-.

[12:10] < Davbo> thought i've no idea how i managed it

[12:12] < Davbo> is there a "zoom" function yet?

[12:12] < Chong-> MS- : yes, you're right. I have seen the problem.

[12:13] < MS-> Chong-: I *THINK* actually what you want to do is different from what you're doing

[12:13] < MS-> You're tumbling the objects in space aren't you?

[12:13] < MS-> Rather than moving the viewer?

[12:13] < Chong-> MS-: yes. currently I rotate the objects, rather than camera/ view

[12:13] < MS-> (This is cool/useful btw since it's harder to do)

[12:13] < MS-> k

[12:14] < MS-> I'd suggest figuring out to solve things the way you're doing it now

[12:14] < MS-> But then looking at how you rotate the entire world view instead :)

[12:14] < MS-> Even if this means looking at changing OpenGLDisplay

[12:15] < MS-> That said, what you're doing...

[12:15] < MS-> should play nicely with other OpenGL components

[12:15] < MS-> which is important

[12:15] < Chong-> MS- : I tried moving viewer first, but it doesn't work very well because it would affect dragging.

[12:15] < MS-> Was that the reason?

[12:16] < MS-> Well, dragging should always take into account the view position

[12:16] < Chong-> Since rotating particles is prone to problems, I will try to move viewer again.

[12:16] < MS-> But anyway, what you're doing should play nicely with other components I guess

[12:16] < orphans> Lawouach, any luck?

[12:16] < MS-> Chong-: You're more than 1/2 way there already

[12:16] < Lawouach> installing the gazillion dependencies for pd-extended

[12:17] < MS-> You have rotation about the Y axis working correctly

[12:17] < MS-> Making that work for X as well should not be a major proble

[12:17] < MS-> You've probably just missed something small :)

[12:17] < Davbo> MS-: if you co Paint now you can play with a couple of layers

[12:17] < orphans> Lawouach, bah, if I could find a source for just the OSC objects I'd point you to it, but all the links seem to be dead

[12:17] < MS-> I'd looks at that before changing the viewer

[12:17] < MS-> If you get that working as well as changing the viewer, that'd be awesome

[12:17] < Chong-> MS-: probably :-) Thanks for helping me debug :-)

[12:18] < MS-> (you'd be able to have 2 topology viewers active in the same space for example, rotated seperately as well as rotating the view space)

[12:18] < Chong-> MS-: I would try both :-)

[12:18] < MS-> That'd be fantastic

[12:18] < MS-> :)

[12:18] < MS-> It's really quite fun as it is :)

[12:18] < MS-> Davbo: /me looks

[12:19] < Davbo> toggle between them with c

[12:19] < Chong-> MS-: cool. I had also thought about rotating just selected particles.

[12:19] < MS-> Chong-: That'd be really useful too

[12:20] < Chong-> cool

[12:20] < Davbo> Example of layer usage: draw a circle (with the line tool) change layer (with C) then put a line through it then change layer again and bucket fill the circle

[12:20] < Lawouach> ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:874:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave < -- we're moving :)

[12:20] < Davbo> you'll note it ignores the line through the circle

[12:20] < MS-> Chong-: In fact, do know things like an artists mannequin?

[12:20] < MS-> Chong-: You're very close to being able to make something like that :)

[12:21] < Chong-> no. what's that?:-)

[12:21] < MS-> Chong-: http://images.google.com/images?q=artists%20mannequin

[12:21] < MS-> :)

[12:21] < MS-> Lots of piccies of them

[12:21] < MS-> Davbo: trying

[12:22] < Chong-> MS-: interesting. Thanks :-)

[12:22] < Davbo> They won them on the Generation Game.

[12:22] < Davbo> :P

[12:22] < MS-> Cool

[12:22] < Chong-> Davbo: sorry for just noticed your comments :/. How did the 'mad vibration' happen?

[12:22] < MS-> works

[12:23] < Davbo> Will start a proper interface for it

[12:23] < MS-> Suggestion:

[12:23] < MS-> 3 windows

[12:23] < Davbo> yeah 1 for layers?

[12:23] < MS-> 1 for each layer

[12:23] < orphans> Lawouach, is that good or bad?

[12:23] < MS-> (so 2 paint windows for the layers)

[12:23] < Davbo> Yeah

[12:23] < MS-> and one compositing window

[12:24] < MS-> with fader control

[12:24] < Davbo> interesting

[12:24] < MS-> s

[12:24] < Lawouach> well I don't hear sound because of it

[12:24] < Davbo> Yeah

[12:24] < Lawouach> but at least it means it tries

[12:24] < MS-> merging the contents

[12:24] < MS-> Sounds a pain

[12:24] < Davbo> sounds good to me MS-

[12:24] < MS-> but isn't

[12:24] < MS-> there's example code...

[12:24] *** MS- rummages

[12:24] < Davbo> sharing surfaces will be okay

[12:24] *** Davbo thinks of way to do it

[12:24] < orphans> Lawouach, you tried just using OSS for now?

[12:24] < Lawouach> yeah just changed to alsa to try

[12:25] < MS-> https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Tools/Show.py

[12:25] < Davbo> Chong-: I'm not sure, i pasted in what MS- said and then one of the nodes was "right up near the camera" if that makes sense and it started vibrating

[12:25] < MS-> and

[12:25] < MS-> https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Kamaelia/UI/Pygame/Image.py

[12:25] < orphans> Lawouach, heh, how come all the sound making programs I give you to try don't work? :)

[12:26] < Lawouach> because ubuntu sucks at audio

[12:26] < Lawouach> even Ubuntu Studio

[12:26] < MS-> There's obviously lots of approaches

[12:26] < MS-> The reason I mention show.py is because it uses that fader approach for a few things

[12:27] < Davbo> Yeah, time Animation will work with multiple windows like this anyway. and a composition window but instead of fading it would cycle through the layers

[12:27] < MS-> But boils down to what the Pygame/Display is doing

[12:27] < Davbo> so it's core code anyway MS-

[12:27] < MS-> I'll let you fiddle around :)

[12:27] < orphans> Lawouach, you got any ideas on it?

[12:27] < Davbo> I'm happy with the progress though

[12:28] < MS-> Davbo: You're definitely progressing

[12:28] < Davbo> I'll test your code orphans see if it's a Lawouach-specific bug

[12:28] < MS-> I think the thing I'd (personall) really like to see (though this may be at the end of the project of course)

[12:28] < orphans> Lawouach, from a thread on an ubuntu ml:

[12:28] < orphans> try

[12:28] < orphans> ~# killall pulseaudio

[12:28] < orphans> then try again

[12:29] < orphans> or try from the Sound control preferences to change your sound devise,

[12:29] < orphans> alsa will work fine as i guess

[12:29] < MS-> is working with layers of different sizes, compositing them with various levels of transparency, and then flattening them together

[12:29] < MS-> Along with a blurring

[12:29] < Davbo> certainly feasible MS-

[12:30] < MS-> And, perhaps as a slightly bizarre idea, the option to switch an entire paint layer to being stuck in "pick colour/eyedropper"

[12:30] < MS-> mode

[12:30] < orphans> I should really upgrade to hardy and see whether I get the same problem

[12:30] < MS-> blurring meaning smudging really

[12:30] < MS-> ie to be able to use an actual layer the way an artist would use a paint palette

[12:30] < Davbo> uh-huh

[12:30] < MS-> All very random ideas

[12:30] < Davbo> this should all be doable imo

[12:30] < Chong-> Davbo: thanks. will it stop vibrating after a while or it keep vibrating?

[12:31] < MS-> You're very much getting a good base

[12:31] < Davbo> it just kept doing it while i had it open Chong-

[12:31] < MS-> for doing all these things, but it's your app - you should head off in the direction you think is fun :)

[12:31] < Davbo> I've fallen in love with Pyhon anyway MS- so I'll stick around after SoC to add other cool stuff ;-)

[12:31] < MS-> Cool :)

[12:32] < Davbo> Chong-: when i start the app there are 3 things, can i get rid of them?

[12:32] < Davbo> 4 things sorry

[12:32] *** MS- wonders what would happen if Chong- Did make an artists dummy and was able to take snapshots and export them as pygame surfaces

[12:33] *** MS- starts wondering what would happen if Chong's app ran as another window attached to Davbos...

[12:33] < Davbo> Yeah I'd guessed you were thinking something along those lines when you suggested an artists Mannequin

[12:33] < MS-> I've thought of that a few times tbh

[12:34] < orphans> Lawouach, or try asoundconf set-pulseaudio

[12:34] < Davbo> interesting thought, wouldn't be as easy due to it being an opengl so we'd literally have to screenshot it

[12:34] < Lawouach> I have uninstalled pulseaudio :)

[12:34] < MS-> indeed :)

[12:34] < Lawouach> but the pd thing is really not straightforward mate :)

[12:35] < orphans> :)

[12:35] < MS-> An automated mannequin though that can accept rotations though also open up from interesting other options (eg animations and all sorts)

[12:35] < Chong-> MS- and Davbo: that would be very interesting

[12:36] < orphans> Lawouach, *sigh*

[12:36] < Lawouach> :)

[12:36] < Lawouach> I'm a user ;)

[12:36] < Lawouach> complaining more than I ought to :D

[12:37] < orphans> problem is now I've tried the two main OSC-using music apps for linux, and neither of them work for you

[12:37] < orphans> both with the same alsa error

[12:37] < Lawouach> that's my system which is not configured properly I think

[12:37] < Lawouach> not your own fault

[12:38] < Lawouach> up to me to make it work

[12:38] < orphans> yeah, it's crappy linux audio

[12:38] < orphans> just wish you could hear the lovelyness which I'm currently playing guitar along to

[12:38] *** orphans overstates slightly on the lovelyness and his guitar playing

[12:38] < Chong-> Davbo: I see the problem. the problem is that you redefine the nodes and links of 1-4 which is not supported currently.

[12:39] < Davbo> thought so Chong- :)

[12:39] < Chong-> Davbo: find DATASOURCE = DataSource, and comment the statement, it should work.

[12:39] < Davbo> hence "get rid of these ones i start with"

[12:40] < orphans> Lawouach, does the multiple jam instances work at least?

[12:40] < orphans> (although it's little consolation)

[12:40] < Lawouach> well they interact with each other

[12:40] < orphans> good :)

[12:41] < Lawouach> though even with a svn up, I can't see the yellow beat

[12:41] < Chong-> yes. or you can use del command to remove them. DEL NODE < id> , DEL LINK < id from> < id to>

[12:41] < orphans> Lawouach, strange

[12:43] < Lawouach> ah

[12:43] < Lawouach> there it goes

[12:43] < Lawouach> I had forgotten to setup.py it :)

[12:43] < orphans> :)

[12:43] < Davbo> :-(

[12:43] < Davbo> usr/local/lib/pd/bin/pd-gui: error while loading shared libraries: libtk8.4.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

[12:43] < Lawouach> I'm using the jam it installs systsem-wide rather than locally to the sketches directory

[12:44] < orphans> yeah

[12:44] < Lawouach> orphans: is that expected however that the beat is not at the same location at one given time between two clients?

[12:44] < orphans> Lawouach, yeah, it is

[12:45] < Lawouach> okay so it works as expected ;)

[12:45] < orphans> I'm could make it happen, but I'm not sure there's much value in it

[12:45] < orphans> if you have two step sequencers in the same instance they sync though

[12:46] < orphans> Davbo, how did you install pd-extended?

[12:47] < Davbo> make install :)

[12:47] < orphans> not packaged for your distro?

[12:47] < Lawouach> orphans: I notice on my machine than every instance consumes quite a lot of CPU

[12:47] < Davbo> indeed

[12:47] < Lawouach> You might want to look at that

[12:47] < Davbo> i was hoping for an rpm

[12:47] < orphans> Davbo, maybe alien the .deb

[12:48] < orphans> Lawouach, how much (ish)?

[12:48] < orphans> and does it happen straight away, or only if you use the XY pads

[12:48] < orphans> I've got a sneaking suspicion that there's a but in them somewhere

[12:48] < orphans> s/but/bug

[12:48] < Davbo> good idea orphans :)

[12:49] < Lawouach> orphans: about 4/7%

[12:49] < Lawouach> doesn't sound like much maybe

[12:49] < Lawouach> but for a simple program I expect less than 1%

[12:49] < orphans> Lawouach, what about if you set FPS (a constant in jam) to 30?

[12:50] < Lawouach> also Axon is usually a low consumer of CPU

[12:50] < Lawouach> trying

[12:51] < MS-> Wow /trunk is getting big now

[12:51] < Lawouach> MS-: yeah :/

[12:51] < Lawouach> I usually just grabe the Code sub-directory

[12:51] < Lawouach> trunk is way too big otherwise

[12:51] < Lawouach> s/grabe/grab

[12:51] < MS-> Probably ought to think about what to do about that

[12:51] < Lawouach> orphans: no difference

[12:52] < Davbo> sounds like a good topic for ML discussion MS-

[12:52] < MS-> Perhaps find out if we can make /Sketches at the same level as /branches, /tags & /trunk

[12:52] < Davbo> back in a bit chaps.

[12:52] < MS-> possibly

[12:52] < orphans> Lawouach, k, in that case I'm not sure where that's from.

[12:52] < MS-> 146 M

[12:52] < orphans> are there any python tools to track cpu usage?

[12:52] < Lawouach> orphans: usually from a component main loop that never really pause

[12:53] < Lawouach> make sure all your components don't loop more often than they ought to

[12:53] < MS-> Hah! Orphans has more stuff in his directories than I do!

[12:54] < orphans> k, I'll have a look through everything and see if there's anything which should be better

[12:54] < orphans> MS-, is that purely on size? Theres about 6Meg of wavs in there :)

[12:54] < MS-> Based on size, yes

[13:06] < aa_> man, no wonder I was having trouble, for some reason I had mega bundle 1.0.1

[13:07] < aa_> which had kamaelia 0.3

[13:07] < aa_> and nothing was working :)

[13:25] < MS-> That would explain things

[13:25] < MS-> You probably want to try the most recent release candidate

[13:25] < MS-> http://edit.kamaelia.org/release/Kamaelia-0.6.0-rc7.tar.gz

[13:25] < MS-> Linked/described/introduced here: http://edit.kamaelia.org/GetKamaelia

[13:26] < MS-> We're currently testing that out and fixing things as raised, but it's a stable release

[13:26] < MS-> Includes Axon as well, so installing Axon/Kamaelia should just be a matter of:

[13:26] < MS-> sudo python setup.py install --force

[13:26] < MS-> --force is a force of habit for me :)

[13:35] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[13:35] *** Lawouach wonders if Graphline allows to dynamically add new components

[13:36] < MS-> I can't actually remember :)

[13:36] < MS-> There's no reason it couldn't be made to do that

[13:36] < Lawouach> I can't deny it'd be great

[13:36] < Lawouach> ok I'll look into it

[13:38] < MS-> I think it doesn't at present tbh. So you'd probably want to add an inbox that accepted a message containing:

[13:38] < MS-> "NAME", < component>, extra_linkages = { mapping like graphline already does }

[13:38] < MS-> Kinda reminiscient of the ADD NODE/DEL NODE, ADD LINK/ DEL LINK stuff the topology visualiser does TBH

[13:39] < Lawouach> um

[13:40] < MS-> If that sounds like nonsense, ignore me :)

[13:41] < orphans> Lawouach, http://www.box.net/shared/xgv5tp3kc0

[13:41] < Lawouach> wow

[13:41] < Lawouach> a specific edition :)

[13:41] < orphans> that version might at least let you see that jam would be making noise even if you don't get to hear it

[13:41] < Lawouach> I'm flattered

[13:42] < orphans> :)

[13:43] < vmlemon_> Hi

[13:45] < Lawouach> orphans: if I can't hear the sound, how can I see it happening anyway?

[13:46] < orphans> there's a graph thingy - I'm not 100% whether it'll work or not

[13:46] < orphans> shows you what you might be hearing :)

[13:47] < Lawouach> ahem

[13:47] < Lawouach> right

[13:47] < Lawouach> well I have a feeling I'll be waiting for MIDI support :)

[13:47] < Lawouach> ;D

[13:48] < vmlemon_> Nay for cryptic error messages

[13:49] < orphans> Lawouach, I'll get some basic support in next if you want - shouldn't take very long and hydrogen works for you iirc

[13:49] < Lawouach> it does

[13:49] < Lawouach> but don't change your schedule for me

[13:49] < Lawouach> it isn't critical for now

[13:49] < Lawouach> your application works as I would have expected in the sense that you have several jam instances conversing

[13:50] < Lawouach> that was the main goal

[13:50] < orphans> ok, cool. If I get a moment I'll put something really simple in

[13:50] < Lawouach> OSC support seems really flacky under Linux

[13:50] < Lawouach> so just move on

[13:50] < orphans> new technology and that :)

[13:50] < Lawouach> ;)

[13:50] < aa_> MS-: I just checked out trunk in the end

[13:51] < orphans> ok, I'm off out now, biab

[13:51] < aa_> orphans: cheers for all your helps :)

[13:55] < MS-> aa_: Trunk is a good idea - the release candidate is taken off there anyway :)

[14:47] *** MS- thinks twitter sucks so far

[14:48] *** MS- rapidly thinking it's a dumb thing

[14:48] < aa_> "MS is scratching his nose"

[14:48] < MS-> heh

[14:49] < MS-> Not quite as bad as that. I'd tried to get a straight answer from someone as to what twitter is useful for, trying it and it seems like a bad/broken combo

[14:49] < MS-> of facebook wall & facebook status

[14:49] < MS-> Someone is claiming it's as good as IRC

[14:49] < MS-> which strikes me as laughable really

[14:50] < MS-> especially vs a logged channel like this one.. (logs are at http://yeoldeclue.com/logs/ )

[14:50] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[14:52] < Lawouach> hey

[14:52] < Lawouach> http://www.defuze.org/oss/jlib/jlibscreen.png

[14:52] < Lawouach> this is written like this:

[14:52] < Lawouach> http://rafb.net/p/5nLUTS87.html

[14:52] < Lawouach> rough

[14:52] < Lawouach> but basically it's using a set of Qt objects and widgets that map headstock to Qt and vice versa

[14:52] < MS-> What's jlib?

[14:53] < Lawouach> a lib I'm writing :)

[14:53] < MS-> Oh something new

[14:53] < MS-> cool :)

[14:53] < Lawouach> yeah :)

[14:53] < MS-> That's quite shiny :)

[14:54] < Lawouach> the cool thing is that I'm making as sure as I can that one could re-use the Qt objects mapped to headstock reusable with different widgets from the one jlib offer by default

[14:54] < Lawouach> meaning the widgets aren't directly responsible for accessing headstock

[14:54] < MS-> Always a good idea

[14:55] < MS-> Should simplify testing to say the least :)

[14:56] < MS-> I see you're using background() the way I expected it to be used there

[14:56] < MS-> which is cool

[14:56] < MS-> :)

[14:56] < Lawouach> :)

[14:56] < MS-> Much more useful to see in practice rather than theory :)

[14:56] < Lawouach> http://trac.defuze.org/browser/oss/jlib

[14:56] *** MS- looks

[14:57] < Lawouach> regarding adding components dynamically to a graph, I had for now to copy paste part of what the main() method of Graphline does

[14:57] < Lawouach> and it works just as well

[14:57] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[14:57] < MS-> cool

[14:57] < Lawouach> I'm also (ab)using PassThrough probably

[14:58] < MS-> pass through is there for those awkward scenarios really

[14:58] < MS-> In theory there's no use for it :-)

[14:59] < Lawouach> :)

[14:59] < Lawouach> well here, like I was saying the other day, I'm using it to deliver data in inboxes

[15:00] < Lawouach> for instance

[15:00] *** MS- nods

[15:00] < Lawouach> http://trac.defuze.org/browser/oss/jlib/jlib/core/chat.py#L38*

[15:00] < Lawouach> http://trac.defuze.org/browser/oss/jlib/jlib/core/chat.py#L38

[15:00] < MS-> I did say in theory :)

[15:00] < Lawouach> :p

[15:00] < MS-> :)

[15:01] < Lawouach> basically I'm linking PassThrough components with headstock components inboxes. Whenever I need to deliver data to one inbox, I send it via the outbox of the PassThrough it's linked with.

[15:02] < MS-> Yep

[15:31] *** MS- packages up his transcode engine

[15:31] < MS-> Though that's a bit of a silly phrase for it

[15:32] < MS-> since it just runs ffmpeg & imagemagick's convert when files are added to directories

[15:33] < MS-> Mind you people do pay silly amounts of cash for something that simple

[15:34] < vmlemon_> Ugh, I know certain people pay through the nose for things like text editors and basic calculator apps... (as stupid as it sounds)

[15:36] < vmlemon_> Hmm, "Without password there is no computing power in the world, that would be able to decrypt your file."

[15:37] *** vmlemon_ bets that's already a "fixed" problem

[15:39] < MS-> What['s that from?

[15:40] < vmlemon_> Some README file for a Windows-based zip archiving and encryption tool

[15:40] < MS-> I see

[15:41] < vmlemon_> "BXTOOLS uses IDEA(tm) algorithm. According to scientists estimates for 1,000,000,000 machines that could try 1,000,000,000 keys/sec,it would still take all these machines longer than the age of the universe to find the right key to decrypt data, encrypted with IDEA algorithm."

[15:42] < vmlemon_> Wow, turns out that it's already semi-cracked

[15:42] < MS-> That's nice. Completely a unsupported statement,

[15:42] < vmlemon_> and it's infested with patents

[15:42] < MS-> since it's of the form

[15:42] < vmlemon_> "s of 2007, the best attack which applies to all keys can break IDEA reduced to 6 rounds (the full IDEA cipher uses 8.5 rounds)[3]." (according to Wikipedia)

[15:42] < MS-> According to < random source picked to sound authoritative> < randomfactoid>

[15:42] < MS-> without reference

[15:42] < vmlemon_> *As

[15:44] < vmlemon_> I'd assume that there are folks cracking it, although I haven't done much Googling

[15:44] < vmlemon_> It's probably possible to break a single character password in no time, although that's my £0.02

[15:52] < vmlemon_> And what do I find...?

[15:52] < vmlemon_> http://www.klabs.org/richcontent/MAPLDCon03/abstracts/michalski_a.pdf

[15:53] < vmlemon_> Looks like they won't let folks view the whole thing though :(

[15:55] < vmlemon_> Probably more theory than proof, though

[15:55] < vmlemon_> (as is usual for that sort of stuff)

[16:00] *** Uraeus has joined #kamaelia

[16:06] *** MS- nods

[16:14] *** Chong- has joined #kamaelia

[16:14] < Chong-> MS-: I think the order of rotation matters.

[16:15] < MS-> probably - it often does :-)

[16:15] < Chong-> So, rotate around x frist and then rotate around y is not necessary the same with rotate around y frist and then rotate around x.

[16:15] < MS-> If you pick up a book

[16:15] < MS-> rotate it around X

[16:15] < MS-> and rotate it around Y

[16:15] < Chong-> yes. another example, suppose a point is in (1,0,0). [rotate around x 90 degree frist and then rotate around y 90 degree] leads to (0,0,-1); but [rotate around y 90 degree frist and then rotate around x 90 degree] leads to (0,1,0)

[16:16] < MS-> No, pick up a book

[16:16] < MS-> Something real

[16:16] < MS-> You'll see what I mean

[16:18] < Chong-> So, I think the behaviour of "left, left, left, left, up, up, up, up" != "up, up, up, up,left, left, left, left" maybe normal

[16:19] < MS-> No, it's not

[16:19] < MS-> You're wrong

[16:19] < MS-> :)

[16:19] < MS-> Pick up a book

[16:19] < MS-> tumble it forward 90 degrees

[16:20] *** MS- wonders if he really has to point out that parts of an object don't rotate in mid-object

[16:21] < Chong-> MS-: np :-)

[16:21] < MS-> No, seriously

[16:21] < MS-> If I took a book

[16:21] < MS-> chopped it up

[16:21] < MS-> and reconnected it with sticks

[16:21] < Chong-> so do you mean the problem is from up and down, not left and right or clockwise and anticlockwise

[16:22] < MS-> The individual parts would not change *SHAPE* relative to each other

[16:22] < Chong-> MS-: yes.

[16:22] < MS-> Your code does change the shape of the composite object

[16:23] < MS-> you can see this very clear

[16:23] < MS-> clearly

[16:23] < MS-> I'm surprised you can't see your code is bust

[16:24] < MS-> Example

[16:24] < MS-> I run your current checked in code

[16:24] < MS-> press "left, left, left, left"

[16:24] < MS-> Then I press up repeatedly

[16:24] < Chong-> It's very strange indeed. there is no problem for one axis rotation, but have problems for more than one axis rotations.

[16:25] < MS-> The rotation of all the objects is completely broken

[16:25] < MS-> It's most obvious with Node 1

[16:25] < MS-> The *positions* in 3D space look correct

[16:25] < MS-> But Node1 is spinning *COMPLETELY* wrong

[16:26] < MS-> relatively to world coordinate

[16:26] < MS-> s

[16:26] < MS-> Same for all the others as well

[16:26] < MS-> but pressing "up" for node1 should not result in it spinning about the Z axis

[16:26] < MS-> which is what is happening

[16:27] < MS-> The other objects are likewise spinning about Z

[16:27] < MS-> Whilst moving position correctly around the X axis

[16:27] < MS-> The reason is because you're not applying your transforms correctly

[16:28] < Chong-> yes. it's a problem because currently it spins around its local axis. But it should not be the reason which causes the problem.

[16:29] < MS-> No, it's *PRECISELY* why that's the problem

[16:29] < Chong-> Because, even I comment the spins code, the problem still exists

[16:29] < MS-> He says, noting he said that earlier

[16:29] < MS-> sigh

[16:29] < MS-> If I rotate a book by 90 degrees in WORLD space

[16:30] < MS-> Around the Y axis

[16:30] < MS-> rotating about the *LOCA* X -axis is then wrong

[16:30] < MS-> because the *LOCAL* X-axis is now parallel with the *WORLD* Z-Axis

[16:32] < Chong-> yep. I can understand the spin problem. But I set the position seperately with spins

[16:33] < MS-> So you understand you have a bug, yes?

[16:33] < Chong-> yes.

[16:33] < MS-> *because* you're rotating relative to LOCAL co-ords

[16:33] < Chong-> Thanks. I will check it again.

[16:34] < MS-> And your assertion here is worng: "But it should not be the reason which causes the problem"

[16:34] < MS-> Because it's *precisely* the problem :)

[16:38] *** bcarlyon|laptop has joined #kamaelia

[16:46] < Chong-> MS-: I have comment/disabled local spins in r4813, you can see the problem of "left, left, left, left, up, up, up, up" != "up, up, up, up,left, left, left, left" still exists

[16:53] < Lawouach> a friend of mine wants to try Kamaelia on OS X, there shouldn't be any known issue about it right?

[16:55] < MS-> Not particularly no

[16:55] < MS-> I run my greylisting mail server on mac os x

[16:55] < MS-> Pygame stuff can sometimes assume multiple mouse buttons

[16:55] < MS-> which confuses mac people

[16:56] < MS-> :)

[16:56] < MS-> But that's the only issue I can think of

[16:56] < MS-> DVB is linux specific

[17:01] < Lawouach> that's fine

[17:01] < Lawouach> I don't think he's interested in that area for now

[17:02] < MS-> Cool

[17:02] < MS-> All the networking stuff should be OK for example

[17:06] < Lawouach> I assumed so much

[17:06] < Lawouach> pure Python afterall

[17:18] < Lawouach> http://springpython.webfactional.com/

[17:20] < MS-> There's a project which I've been involved with which uses Spring in Java. It wasn't a fun experience.

[17:20] < MS-> Banging my head against a brick wall would've been more fun :-(

[17:20] < MS-> So that kinda colours my views of anything called "spring" :)

[17:21] < Lawouach> A friend of mine works for them. He agreed there was a rather steep learning curve.

[17:21] < Lawouach> But he likes it

[17:21] < MS-> That's nice :)

[17:21] < Lawouach> :)

[17:21] < MS-> Each to their own after all :)

[17:22] < MS-> They do have a nice logo :)

[17:23] < Lawouach> hah!

[17:40] < aa_> everything I code is gtk-based, so how would I integrate kamaelia into gtk's main loop, or vice versa?

[17:41] < MS-> I've not used gtk, but my suggestion would be to use something called "background" now

[17:41] < MS-> What that does is it runs the scheduler that runs the kamaelia components in the background :)

[17:42] < aa_> sounds perfect

[17:42] < aa_> gtk hates not being in first place in the foreground

[17:42] < MS-> from Axon.background import background

[17:42] < MS-> background().start()

[17:42] < MS-> The exact syntax for that may change in the near future. But that's a may, rather than anything definite at this stage

[17:43] < MS-> You can then launch arbitrary components by doing

[17:43] < MS-> SomeComponent().activate()

[17:43] < aa_> that could be a graphline couldn't it

[17:43] < MS-> Yep

[17:43] < MS-> Anything :)

[17:44] < aa_> I wonder if I could write a messagy-inboxy-outboxy interface to gtk

[17:44] < MS-> That'd be great if you could :)

[17:44] < MS-> In the meantime you can go the other way though

[17:44] < MS-> As long as you're only talking to these boxes: inbox/outbox control/signal

[17:44] < MS-> By using Axon.Handle

[17:45] < MS-> There's examples of how to use that here:...

[17:45] < MS-> https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Axon/Examples/Handles

[17:45] < MS-> and here

[17:45] < MS-> https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Examples/Handles

[17:45] < aa_> MS-: you are a Brit right?

[17:45] < MS-> yep

[17:45] < aa_> you watching this tennis final?

[17:45] < aa_> OT!!!

[17:46] < MS-> I don't watch tennis :)

[17:46] < aa_> it's a good one!

[17:46] < MS-> Cool :)

[17:46] < aa_> MS-: also, were you at pyconuk last year?

[17:47] < MS-> Yep - I'm on the committee for that :)

[17:47] < aa_> because I think that's where I first heard of the thing

[17:47] < aa_> kamaelia

[17:47] < aa_> oh cool

[17:47] < aa_> I am giving a tutorial about gtk on the tutorials day

[17:47] < MS-> Cool - glad to hear that it works

[17:47] < MS-> Ah right cool

[17:48] < aa_> sorry, I'll leave you in peace now ;)

[17:48] < aa_> desperate to find something cool to write with kamaelia

[17:49] < MS-> I'm currently packaging up a transcoding engine at the moment - to make it easier to use with a system at work :)

[17:49] < MS-> Been testing it for a while, and it works, so packaging up to move to the beta system

[17:50] < MS-> Recently built a the speak N write tool which is designed for assisting my daughter to learn to read & write :)

[17:50] < MS-> (waiting for a touch screen gp2x at the moment for that)

[17:50] < aa_> yeah, noticed that somewhere

[17:50] < aa_> MS-: you must have been building kamaelia for *years*

[17:50] < MS-> Yep :)

[17:50] < aa_> well, good for you

[17:51] < aa_> do you "own" it or is it the beeb's?

[17:51] < MS-> Not doing it day in day out at work at the moment - but do work on it most days

[17:51] < MS-> For the first few years it was day in day out at work

[17:51] < MS-> So it's actually "owned" by the beeb

[17:51] < MS-> went through 9 months of paperwork/etc to get it released as open source :)

[17:52] < aa_> ouch

[17:52] < MS-> Then 4 months to get a contributer agreement sorted (basically the same as pythons)

[17:52] < MS-> yeah, but it makes life easier for everyone else :)

[17:52] < aa_> oh wait, I am a tv license holder!

[17:52] < MS-> Yep, so you get something back :)

[17:53] < aa_> MS-: does all the iPlayer stuff run on kamaelia?

[17:53] < MS-> Nope. It could, but doesn't.

[17:53] < aa_> oh, shame

[17:53] < MS-> We've got two systems which if joined together would work fine there.

[17:54] < MS-> But you can easily build something like iPlayer for yourself using kamaelia.

[17:54] < MS-> And aside from anything else, alot of what happens in the beeb only happens if people get a demonstration of what's possible

[17:54] < MS-> So, K helps from that perspective.

[17:55] < aa_> oh I see

[17:55] < MS-> For example, the BBC podcasts are probably attributable to kamaelia on at least one level

[17:55] < MS-> One of the people in audio & music wanted a radio PVR (essentially)

[17:55] < aa_> "pvr" ?

[17:56] < MS-> and made one using K that recorded everything broadcast on radio

[17:56] < MS-> digital recorder

[17:56] < aa_> oh I see

[17:56] < MS-> ie recorded 1, 2,3,4,5,6,7

[17:56] < MS-> transcoded them as AAC & MP3

[17:56] *** aa_ would love to lsiten to r5 on the iphone

[17:56] < MS-> and then used that to put on iPods

[17:57] < MS-> showed this to heads of radio, and then they realised it was just a small box in the corner doing it

[17:57] < MS-> so they realised they had to change their strategy

[17:57] < aa_> hah

[17:57] < MS-> That was before we'd done our performance optimisations so K was only used for prototyping that, but it was crucial to show it was realistic/doable

[17:58] < MS-> and it changed some people's views on something important :)

[17:58] < MS-> It's fun turning software into lego though - each new component opens up new options :)

[17:58] *** MS- gets dinner :)

[17:58] < MS-> biab

[18:01] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[18:28] *** MS- has a fun thought about versioning for kamaelia.

[18:28] < MS-> next release is 0.6, and whilst the period for ensuring that release is stable is longer than others, the periods for releases after that should be quicker

[18:29] < MS-> So my intent would be to aim for a 0.7 release in early-mid autumn and aim for a 0.8 release at Christmas or so

[18:29] < MS-> Then in 2009 switch to a model similar to ubuntu & friends

[18:29] < MS-> except base the version on the last two digits

[18:30] < MS-> So Jan 09 becomes version 0.9.1

[18:30] < MS-> Jun would be 0.9.6

[18:30] < MS-> Assuming I'm still doing this in 2010, that would be the year it hits version 1.0 , and there's specific things I want in place for that

[18:31] < MS-> so that makes sense :)

[18:35] < vmlemon_> The cat's Crimbo hat should be coming out again? ;)

[18:35] < MS-> :)

[18:37] < vmlemon_> Easter Kitty!

[18:37] < MS-> oh, that's quite tempting

[18:37] < MS-> :-)

[18:37] < vmlemon_> Obviously carrying a basket of eggs, erm Kamaelia ;)

[18:38] *** bcarlyon|laptop has joined #kamaelia

[20:41] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[21:49] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[22:13] *** MS- tries something that allows this:

[22:13] < MS-> yield self.Inline( UnixProcess("ls;sleep 0.1"), control="_unixprocessdone" )

[22:13] < MS-> for i in self.Inbox("inbox"):

[22:13] < MS-> print i

[22:13] < MS-> Seems more general than this:

[22:13] < MS-> yield self.system("fortune")

[22:13] < MS-> for i in self.Inbox("inbox"):

[22:13] < MS-> print i

[22:13] < MS-> but not as pretty

[22:14] < MS-> (the sleep 0.1 is there because it seems that the subprocess module does something a little odd (appears to close the connection too quickly?)

[22:21] *** MS- chooses both

[22:24] < vmlemon_> How odd, seeing as the conference was only created 2 minutes ago

[22:24] < vmlemon_> Entry Name Unseen Last new note Topics Update status

[22:24] < vmlemon_> TESTING 1 17-NOV-1858 00:00 0 Never accessed

[22:24] < MS-> unusual

[22:25] *** vmlemon_ is still trying to figure out how to reply to the damn testing notes...

[22:25] < MS-> 42

[22:25] < MS-> "I am a fish"

[22:26] < vmlemon_> Hah, " Testing only -- no real content, please. " happens to be the conference's title

[22:27] < vmlemon_> Damn, "No privilege to reply to this note (set nowrite)"

[22:27] < vmlemon_> Looks like I've broken the 'DIRECTORY/CONFERENCES' command by deleting the notebook from my home directory

[22:27] < vmlemon_> (Gives a not-so-nice permissions error, now)

[22:30] *** vmlemon_ has only used DEC Notes twice, so puts it down to unfamiliarity and stupidity on his part

[22:31] < vmlemon_> Wow, how un-user friendly - "Qualifiers not allowed - supply only verb and parameters"

[22:56] < MS-> >

[22:56] < MS-> ?

[22:56] < MS-> odd

[22:57] *** vmlemon_ is surprised that the OpenVMS mail app actually interoperates both ways with SMTP, albeit with an annoying greylisting system in the middle (delays delivery inside by 3 minutes)...

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