[08:23] *** mhrd-afk is now known as mhrd

[09:34] *** Uraeus has joined #kamaelia

[10:08] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[10:10] *** mhrd is now known as mhrd-mtgs

[10:42] *** orphans has joined #kamaelia

[11:29] *** Davb1 has joined #kamaelia

[11:53] < Davb1> http://symbianfoundation.org/

[11:53] < Davb1> Way too late imo

[11:53] < Davb1> Should have done that a long time ago

[11:54] < Davb1> (Symbian going open source under Eclipse Public License)

[11:55] < ms-afk> just read. It's intending to go open source 2 years after formation of the foundation

[11:55] < ms-afk> which starts in 2009

[11:55] < ms-afk> so release in ~2011

[11:56] < ms-afk> Whether or not it should've been done sooner, it's interesting

[11:56] < Davb1> Yeah

[11:56] < ms-afk> And it's the traditional tactic for a hardware group as well

[11:56] < ms-afk> which many of those are

[11:56] < Davb1> Well not really, 'interesting' Google Android was interesting this is just competition response

[11:56] < ms-afk> when faced with a closed competitor who is ahead of them in functaionality

[11:56] < ms-afk> No, its a response to the iPhone

[11:56] < ms-afk> Not android per se

[11:57] < ms-afk> Android is a potential competitor

[11:57] < ms-afk> iPhone is a real competitor

[11:57] < Davb1> True

[11:57] < Davb1> They're going for Android's model though

[11:58] < ms-afk> I don't particularly read it that way

[11:58] < ms-afk> nokia have been trying to push in that direction for a while

[11:58] < Davb1> Do Nokia have Qt on any of their devices?

[11:59] < ms-afk> No idea.

[11:59] < Davb1> They own it right?

[11:59] < ms-afk> Python S60 was a first stab though

[11:59] < ms-afk> They bought them yes

[11:59] < ms-afk> But it wasn't their last stab

[11:59] < Davb1> I'd expect to see that on the Symbian then

[11:59] < ms-afk> That assumes companies and corporations are well connected

[12:00] < ms-afk> in that kind of way

[12:00] < ms-afk> It's like when people said "ahh iPlayer - I expect to see Dirac on that"

[12:00] < Davb1> Heh. True

[12:00] < ms-afk> Many large companies are like warring clans of feudal empires

[12:00] < ms-afk> sadlyt

[12:02] < Davb1> It stifles innovation, it would be a shame if Qt doesn't make it to the Symbian platform

[12:03] < ms-afk> I don't think it stifles innovation - it's just part of human nature.

[12:04] < ms-afk> People don't necessarily use stuff because they don't expect things to work the way people say they do

[12:04] < ms-afk> eg this comment from a blog about mashed:

[12:04] < ms-afk> "We saw presentations about ... as well as BBC Research’s Kamaelia project (which allegedly makes writing concurrent applications ‘as easy as building lego’)."

[12:05] < ms-afk> Note the "allegedly"

[12:05] < Davb1> Heh

[12:05] < ms-afk> The fact that I built a system with 37 concurrent bits at the weekend and demoed it on stage is by-the-by...

[12:05] < ms-afk> :)

[12:05] < Davb1> How did your presentations go?

[12:05] < ms-afk> They went well

[12:06] < ms-afk> The pre-hacking one was pretty good

[12:06] < Davb1> Will I be able to watch it on Click? :-)

[12:06] < ms-afk> Doubt it

[12:06] < ms-afk> They were recording the sessions though thinking about it

[12:06] < ms-afk> ie decent cameras & microphones

[12:07] < ms-afk> probably go online somewhere at some point

[12:07] < Davb1> Ah nice

[12:07] < ms-afk> That'll be useful - I'll want to summarise things

[12:07] < Davb1> let me know when you see them up

[12:07] < ms-afk> I showed what K was, why it was written, how to make a component (using a piece of webcam code as an example)

[12:07] < ms-afk> (ie get code working, then componentise)

[12:08] < ms-afk> Then how to make systems

[12:08] < ms-afk> and then walked through Kamaelia Macro & Kamaelia Grey

[12:08] < ms-afk> Kamaelia Macro is going to morph into Kamaelia Redux though

[12:08] < ms-afk> Which boils down to "transcode on demand"

[12:08] < ms-afk> rather than "transcode upfront"

[12:08] < Davb1> Hmm

[12:09] < ms-afk> which will mean it should work on an average laptop with a bucketload of storage attached

[12:09] < Davb1> Ah cool

[12:09] < Davb1> What about a 900Mhz EEE? :D

[12:09] < ms-afk> Dunno - dvb demuxing isn't actually that expensive in CPU terms

[12:10] < Davb1> cool

[12:10] < ms-afk> after all it has to be vcheap in CPU terms - most freeview boxes have a really really slow CPU inside

[12:10] < ms-afk> I *do* like this layout on kamaelia pages : http://edit.kamaelia.org/KamaeliaMacro

[12:10] < ms-afk> I've decided

[12:10] < Davb1> I think it would have been impossible for me to code on that thing, I've never even tried

[12:10] < ms-afk> (Presentation in top right hand corder)

[12:11] < ms-afk> What due to keyboard size?

[12:11] < ms-afk> Or CPU ?

[12:11] < ms-afk> or ?

[12:11] < Davb1> Keyboard size, and 7'' screen

[12:11] < ms-afk> :)

[12:11] < ms-afk> ah I see

[12:11] < ms-afk> Yes, I wasn't a fan of the 7" screen

[12:12] < Davb1> this is 19'' widescreen, it's a big jump

[12:12] < ms-afk> Not used one, but hey

[12:12] < Davb1> I like to be able to see a lot of code at once though

[12:12] *** ms-afk nods

[12:12] < Davb1> My biggest problem with most IDE's

[12:13] < ms-afk> I'm very much of the school of thought that says "If it doesn't fit in a screenful, your function is way to large"

[12:13] < ms-afk> It's not to say I don't have some code that is like that

[12:14] < ms-afk> but it does mean I recognise that it's bust

[12:14] < ms-afk> OK, I really ought to go write some code

[12:14] < ms-afk> How's the prog coming btw?

[12:14] < ms-afk> Have you tried using the new (on trunk!) version of the process stuff?

[12:14] < Davb1> Buttons don't work with an extra Graphline wrapped

[12:15] < ms-afk> k

[12:15] < Davb1> If i do .run() on the Graphline in the ProcessGraphline they work but the rest of the ProcessGraphline doesn't

[12:16] < ms-afk> OK

[12:16] < ms-afk> https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/trunk/Sketches/MPS/pprocess/MultiDoodle.py

[12:16] < Davb1> it's strange, it appears the "sub-components" don't get executed

[12:16] < ms-afk> odd

[12:17] < ms-afk> is the latest version checked in?

[12:17] < Davb1> no, 1 second

[12:18] < Davb1> done

[12:20] < ms-afk> Just checking in a modification

[12:20] < ms-afk> (so that we can see everything at once in a Graphline)

[12:21] < ms-afk> OK, not all the things are being created in ProcessGraphline

[12:22] < Davb1> Yeah thats what it looks like

[12:22] < ms-afk> Where are the buttons created?

[12:22] < ms-afk> Ahhhhhhhhh

[12:22] < ms-afk> I see

[12:23] < ms-afk> It's because you're doing something that isn't supported

[12:23] < Davb1> Ah

[12:23] < ms-afk> but works in a single threaded environment

[12:23] < ms-afk> In

[12:23] < ms-afk> class XYPad(Axon.Component.component):

[12:23] < ms-afk> def __init__

[12:23] < ms-afk> you do

[12:23] < ms-afk> rgbutton = Button(caption="Red/Green",position=(0,0)).activate()

[12:23] < ms-afk> rbbutton = Button(caption="Red/Blue",position=(0,50)).activate()

[12:23] < ms-afk> gbbutton = Button(caption="Green/Blue",position=(0,100)).activate()

[12:23] < ms-afk> *BUT*

[12:23] < ms-afk> This means you're activating something at *creation* time

[12:24] < ms-afk> Which is a real nono anyway

[12:24] < ms-afk> But in this case it means that you activate

[12:24] < ms-afk> get added to a run queue

[12:24] < Davb1> Agh! I originally had that elsewhere too because I thought it was a bad idea

[12:24] < ms-afk> the scheduler forks

[12:24] < ms-afk> and then wipes the queue

[12:24] < ms-afk> blatting your buttons

[12:24] < Davb1> ahh

[12:24] < ms-afk> I'll just shift those lines

[12:25] < ms-afk> Waiting for checkin to complete

[12:26] < ms-afk> done

[12:27] < ms-afk> You'll note I've put the activates *after* you've requested the display

[12:27] < Davb1> Yeah, that was stupid of me

[12:27] < ms-afk> Not really

[12:28] < ms-afk> Beginners mistake :)

[12:28] < Davb1> i'd settled on "this works" logic

[12:28] < Davb1> which isn't always the best

[12:28] < ms-afk> Know many other people doing multicore stuff ?

[12:28] < ms-afk> ;)

[12:28] < ms-afk> :)

[12:28] < Davb1> :-D

[12:30] < Davb1> Woo! works normally now

[12:30] < ms-afk> cool

[12:30] < Davb1> I'll move from using the control box back to buttons and see if it works

[12:34] < Davb1> buttons works, which is good news as it's a non-standard box. So we know that internal-linkages don't get messed up by the ProcessGraphline

[12:40] < ms-afk> cool

[12:40] < ms-afk> BTW, can you change this line:

[12:40] < ms-afk> Paint.py: from MultiPipeline import ProcessGraphline

[12:40] < ms-afk> to

[12:41] < ms-afk> from Axon.experimental.Process import ProcessGraphline

[12:41] < ms-afk> (capitalisation on "experimental" is deliberate - it naturally just looks "odd" discouraging use)

[12:42] < Davb1> Ah cool

[12:42] < Davb1> I'll change that now

[12:42] < ms-afk> Also means you can work from /trunk happily :-)

[12:43] < Davb1> Yeah no need for changing the path now :-)

[12:43] < ms-afk> indeed

[12:43] < Davb1> the flood-fill algorithm I found is very nice

[12:44] < Davb1> very Pythonic use of lists

[12:45] < ms-afk> cool

[12:47] < Davb1> I might try to contact the guy that posted it to the image-sig list

[12:47] < Davb1> I don't know etiquette for this sort of thing

[12:48] < ms-afk> we can chat later if you like?

[12:48] < ms-afk> I need to get lucnh and take a break

[12:48] < ms-afk> say early this evening?

[12:48] < ms-afk> Generally speaking though

[12:48] < ms-afk> the etiquette is

[12:48] < ms-afk> "if it was posted publically, then reply publically"

[12:49] < Davb1> I should be on later yes

[12:49] < ms-afk> "unless you're saying something negative, in which case checking off list first can be best"

[12:49] < Davb1> right

[12:49] < ms-afk> If it's a question

[12:50] < ms-afk> then read the how to ask smart questions faq first

[12:50] < ms-afk> esp if you've never read it

[12:50] < ms-afk> "how to ask smart questions"

[12:50] < ms-afk> as a search term should get you it

[12:50] < Davb1> Alright, go and eat :P

[12:50] < ms-afk> :)

[12:55] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[13:05] < vmlemon_> Hi

[13:05] < Davb1> hi vmlemon_

[13:06] *** Trun has joined #kamaelia

[13:27] < vmlemon_> Eh, "radio1: We're playing your song! 'Elevation' by U2 playing NOW on BBC Radio 1 - listen at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio1.shtml" (according to a Google Talk message from an experimental bot)...

[13:27] < vmlemon_> I can't remember ever requesting a song on Radio 1

[13:28] < vmlemon_> Not to mention that I don't even listen to it...

[13:30] < vmlemon_> Probably just a general message, seeing as it's based on the LiveText, if I remember correctly

[13:35] < Davb1> That's kinda cool

[13:44] < orphans> afternoon all

[13:44] < vmlemon_> radio1@hug.hellomatty.com happens to be the Jabber ID for the bot (substitute the "radio1" bit for another BBC station if you want, although there isn't a specific list, although "radio2" seemed to work when I tried it)...

[13:44] < Davb1> Hi orphans

[13:44] < vmlemon_> Hi orphans

[13:44] < ms-afk> afternoon

[13:45] < vmlemon_> Hi ms-afk

[13:45] < Davb1> http://hellomatty.com/

[13:45] < Davb1> :-/

[13:45] < ms-afk> heh

[13:47] < orphans> just fell foul of an interesting python gotcha - never knew about this one

[13:47] < orphans> a = [[[0, None]]*4]*4

[13:47] < orphans> a[0][0][0] = 2

[13:47] < orphans> print a

[13:47] < orphans> [[[2, None], [2, None], [2, None], [2, None]], [[2, None], [2, None], [2, None], [2, None]], [[2, None], [2, None], [2, None], [2, None]], [[2, None], [2, None], [2, None], [2, None]]]

[13:48] < ms-afk> >

[13:48] < ms-afk> ?

[13:48] < Davb1> Makes sense to me ?

[13:48] < ms-afk> Oh I see

[13:48] < ms-afk> I wasn't reading it

[13:48] < orphans> I'd expect a[0][0][1] to be equal to 0 still

[13:48] < Davb1> oh duh

[13:48] < Davb1> Yeah

[13:49] < Davb1> Why's that happen?

[13:49] < orphans> something to do with copying methinks

[13:49] < orphans> it's especially funny because:

[13:49] < orphans> >>> a = [0] * 4

[13:49] < orphans> >>> a[1] = 2

[13:49] < orphans> >>> a

[13:49] < orphans> [0, 2, 0, 0]

[13:49] < ms-afk> It's because you're expect * to do copying

[13:49] < ms-afk> which it does

[13:49] < ms-afk> it copies the value

[13:50] < ms-afk> the value with the list happens to be a reference

[13:50] < ms-afk> so it copies the reference

[13:50] < Davb1> Ah it's a shallow copy

[13:50] < orphans> yeah, had me stumped for aaages though

[13:50] < Davb1> Yeah orphans I imagine that would be a headache waiting to happen

[13:51] < orphans> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-bugs-list/2007-February/037113.html is a bug report on it, with an explanation

[13:51] < ms-afk> >>> a = "a"

[13:51] < ms-afk> >>> a

[13:51] < ms-afk> 'a'

[13:51] < ms-afk> >>> [id(x) for x in a ]

[13:51] < ms-afk> [3083786112L]

[13:51] < ms-afk> >>> [id(x) for x in a*10 ]

[13:51] < ms-afk> [3083786112L, 3083786112L, 3083786112L, 3083786112L, 3083786112L, 3083786112L, 3083786112L, 3083786112L, 3083786112L, 3083786112L]

[13:52] < ms-afk> The short version is probably "*" can know how to do a naive copy

[13:52] < orphans> it's an interesting one :)

[13:52] < ms-afk> ie a value copy

[13:52] < ms-afk> A = "a"

[13:52] < ms-afk> B = A

[13:53] < ms-afk> style copy

[13:53] < ms-afk> but not a deepcopy

[13:53] < orphans> mhm

[13:53] < ms-afk> because it can't ever be certain what to do in the case of a deepcopy

[13:54] < ms-afk> It's a gotcha with default arguments as well

[13:54] < ms-afk> def push(item, whichlist = []):

[13:54] < ms-afk> whichlist.append(item)

[13:54] < ms-afk> return which list

[13:55] < ms-afk> everyone who calls that without specifying whichlist will get the same list

[13:55] < ms-afk> (which is the [] in the default args)

[13:55] < ms-afk> which is why you'll see me do

[13:55] < ms-afk> def push(item, whichlist = None):

[13:55] < ms-afk> if whichlist == None:

[13:55] < ms-afk> whichlist = []

[13:55] < ms-afk> whichlist.append(item)

[13:55] < ms-afk> return which list

[13:57] < orphans> never knew that either

[13:57] < ms-afk> There's afew little oddities like that

[13:57] < ms-afk> lambda is a pita as well

[13:57] < ms-afk> since it doesn't work like a closure always

[13:58] < ms-afk> ie if you have

[13:58] < ms-afk> greeting = "hello"

[13:58] < ms-afk> greet = lambda x : return greeting + str(x)

[13:58] < ms-afk> what you get for greet("world")

[13:58] < ms-afk> depends on global values

[13:59] < ms-afk> rather than the value being captured in a closure

[13:59] < ms-afk> eg

[13:59] < ms-afk> >>> greeting = "hello"

[13:59] < ms-afk> >>> greet = lambda x : greeting + str(x)

[13:59] < ms-afk> >>> greet("world")

[13:59] < ms-afk> 'helloworld'

[13:59] < ms-afk> >>> greeting = "game over "

[13:59] < ms-afk> >>> greet("world")

[13:59] < ms-afk> 'game over world'

[14:00] < ms-afk> In a true closure, the latter should still give you "hello world"

[14:00] < orphans> I tend to not use lambda functions much - they scare me a little :)

[14:01] < Davb1> They seem really useful but I've not used one yet

[14:01] < ms-afk> The closest you get is this:

[14:01] < ms-afk> >>> def mkgreet():

[14:01] < ms-afk> ... greeting = "hello"

[14:01] < ms-afk> ... def f(x):

[14:01] < ms-afk> ... return greeting + str(x)

[14:01] < ms-afk> ... return f

[14:01] < ms-afk> ...

[14:01] < ms-afk> >>> greet = mkgreet()

[14:01] < ms-afk> >>> greet("world")

[14:01] < ms-afk> 'helloworld'

[14:01] < ms-afk> >>> greeting = "game over "

[14:01] < ms-afk> >>> greet("world")

[14:01] < ms-afk> 'helloworld'

[14:01] < ms-afk> WHich is the behaviour lambda *should* have IMO

[14:02] < Davb1> Yeah

[14:02] < orphans> are there places where it's nice to exploit lambda functions doing that?

[14:02] < ms-afk> It more often than not causes bugs which I end up eventually going

[14:02] < ms-afk> "oh yes, *THAT* problem"

[14:03] < ms-afk> rather than ever (once) been useful

[14:03] < orphans> :)

[14:03] < ms-afk> so in theory, maybe

[14:03] < ms-afk> in practice, no

[14:03] < orphans> I guess you only learn these things from being stuck trying to work out what was going on for about five hours :)

[14:03] < Davb1> orphans: I'd imagine if there was a situation where you could exploit it but you could just do it the other way just as easily (more trouble than it's worth)

[14:03] < ms-afk> something like that

[14:04] < Davb1> When were lambda functions added, they're quite recent right?

[14:04] < ms-afk> Over a decade ago...

[14:04] < Davb1> o

[14:05] < Davb1> :-/

[14:05] < Davb1> I must have been thinking of something else

[14:06] < ms-afk> 1993

[14:06] < ms-afk> 15 years :-)

[14:06] < Davb1> I'd have been 4

[14:06] < ms-afk> "March 10, 2005" ... "About 12 years ago, Python aquired lambda, reduce(), filter() and map(), courtesy of (I believe) a Lisp hacker who missed them..."

[14:06] < Davb1> cool.

[14:06] < ms-afk> *sob*

[14:07] < ms-afk> That's how you make your mentors feel *old*

[14:07] < ms-afk> :-P

[14:07] < Davb1> Ah, sorry ms-afk! :)

[14:07] < ms-afk> heh

[14:07] < Davb1> Hey you managed 8hrs sleep with Mashed that's pretty good :-P

[14:07] < ms-afk> Don't worry, I've been coding since before you were born, including writing my own language and task scheduler

[14:07] < ms-afk> heh

[14:07] < ms-afk> No 8 hours between thurs and sunday

[14:08] < ms-afk> sat/sun was 1.5 hours

[14:08] < ms-afk> fri/sat was 2 hours

[14:08] < ms-afk> :)

[14:17] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[14:19] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[14:24] < Davb1> Bloody hell Mandriva have done their best to hide Firefox 3

[14:25] < Davb1> hahaha

[14:26] < Davb1> PyLOLz

[14:26] < ms-afk> o.k.

[14:27] < Davb1> What an essential component

[14:28] < Davb1> I assume you've seen it ms-afk

[14:28] < ms-afk> no

[14:28] < Davb1> http://freakymousemats.com/blog/posts/2008/06/24/mashed08-and-pylolz/

[14:29] < ms-afk> Oh, it has a kamaelia bit?

[14:29] < Davb1> You could describe it as that, yes.

[14:30] < Davb1> there isn't much to is

[14:30] < Davb1> s/is/it

[14:30] < ms-afk> Ah I see

[14:30] < vmlemon_> It just prints "LOL"?

[14:31] < ms-afk> heh, it could be plugged into the IRC code

[14:31] < Davb1> I think it's a tool to help you understand YouTube comments ;-D

[14:31] < ms-afk> It'd be a great way to piss people off

[14:31] < ms-afk> :-)

[14:31] < ms-afk> sooo tempted

[14:31] < ms-afk> :)

[14:31] < vmlemon_> You could make an Engrish plugin for it ;)

[14:32] < Davb1> Could add it to the logger and just add a -lol flag or something

[14:32] < ms-afk> Nicely well written component mind

[14:32] < Davb1> Yeah

[14:32] < vmlemon_> Swedish Chef plugin, even? ;)

[14:32] < ms-afk> requires yaml

[14:32] *** ms-afk rummages

[14:33] < Davb1> Good example of how easy it is to componentise something i think ms-afk

[14:33] < ms-afk> Well, I do have a markov chain server...

[14:33] < ms-afk> so combining those could drive people mad

[14:34] < vmlemon_> Hmm, MegaHAL in Kamaelia?

[14:34] < vmlemon_> Might be an interesting experiment...

[14:34] < Davb1> If you did that to the logs I'd reverse the translator and mirror the logs on davbo.org :P

[14:34] < vmlemon_> ROT-13 Plug-in!

[14:35] < vmlemon_> "Industrial strength encryption for your IRC logs" ;)

[14:36] < Davb1> "from lolz import Tranzlator"

[14:36] < Davb1> lol

[14:36] < vmlemon_> Hah

[14:36] < ms-afk> It works :)

[14:37] < Davb1> Requires: PyYAML (http://pyyaml.org/) ms-afk

[14:37] < Davb1> ah cool

[14:37] < ms-afk> I know - been there, got that, installed the codebase

[14:37] < ms-afk> ;)

[14:37] < ms-afk> :)

[14:38] < Davb1> firefox 3 looks great on KDE

[14:38] *** vmlemon_ hasn't tried Firefox 3 yet

[14:38] < ms-afk> me neither

[14:39] < Davb1> I like YAML

[14:39] < ms-afk> Wonder if I should mention that you can use pygame without opening a window

[14:39] *** vmlemon_ has at least 3 different browsers running at the moment, for no particular reason...

[14:39] < ms-afk> and therefore he could auto caption things

[14:40] < ms-afk> Probably best not to.

[14:40] < vmlemon_> You could have it "translate" DVB subtitles ;)

[14:40] < ms-afk> We'd have to capture them render them as surfaces and the OCR the images to get the text

[14:40] < ms-afk> DVB subtitles are a PITA

[14:40] < vmlemon_> Meh, stupid font farce

[14:41] < ms-afk> indeedilly doodly

[14:41] < vmlemon_> Does it support standard Teletext in DVB streams?

[14:41] < vmlemon_> Assuming that it still gets broadcast

[14:41] < ms-afk> Still that said, this does mean that Kamaelia's encouraged someone to put some code online for the first time, so that's definitely a cool thing :-)

[14:41] < vmlemon_> I think at least Sky still supports it

[14:42] < vmlemon_> LOLetext!

[14:42] < ms-afk> I've no idea :)

[14:42] < ms-afk> I am SOOOO exhausted, it's unbelievable

[14:42] < vmlemon_> LOLFAX? ;)

[14:43] < ms-afk> So, where do we allocate in the Kamaelia tree to silly stuff ?

[14:43] < ms-afk> like this?

[14:43] < vmlemon_> Catnip? ;)

[14:43] < vmlemon_> Funbox?

[14:43] < Davb1> Kamaelia.Annoying.*

[14:43] < ms-afk> Kamaelia.Catnip ?

[14:43] < Davb1> Catnip haha

[14:44] < ms-afk> I quite like that actually

[14:45] < vmlemon_> Trinkets?

[14:46] < vmlemon_> Wow, my desk is overflowing with used tissues... :|

[14:48] < orphans> ms-afk, sent email to the list about the scheduler design I was asking you about last night

[14:49] < ms-afk> cool

[14:49] < ms-afk> will look later :)

[14:50] < orphans> now onto the serious matters of the day - I can make beats using Jam (or at least will be able to in about 5 minutes) :D

[14:51] < ms-afk> cool

[14:51] < ms-afk> :)

[14:51] < ms-afk> what day is it today?

[14:51] < ms-afk> tuesday?

[14:51] < orphans> yup

[14:51] < ms-afk> I feel jetlagged

[14:51] < orphans> heh :)

[14:51] < ms-afk> Without the free inflight beverages

[15:11] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[15:37] < vmlemon_> Cool, they're supposedly going to open source Symbian OS

[15:37] < vmlemon_> (according to http://symbianfoundation.org/)

[15:37] < ms-afk> At some point within 2 years from that foundation starting in 2009

[15:39] < vmlemon_> Might be interesting if they released EPOC too

[15:39] < vmlemon_> Seeing as Symbian OS is based on it

[15:40] < vmlemon_> (Just for historical purposes)

[15:40] < Davb1> old news vmlemon_ ;-)

[15:40] < vmlemon_> Interesting to see where things are going - first RISC OS, now Symbian...

[15:40] < Davb1> me and ms-afk were talking about this earlier :-)

[15:40] *** vmlemon_ didn't know

[15:41] < vmlemon_> Still, it's hot and fresh out of the oven today ;)

[15:41] < vmlemon_> Or so I'd believe

[15:41] < Davb1> Yeah I'm just kidding :)

[15:41] < vmlemon_> Hah

[15:41] < Davb1> thought you'd be interested see me argue with ms in the logs :P

[15:42] < ms-afk> argue?

[15:42] *** vmlemon_ goes to sync his logs

[15:42] < Davb1> s/argue/debate

[15:42] < vmlemon_> "Discuss in a polite and civil manner"? ;)

[15:43] < Davb1> s/debate/listen to ms

[15:43] < Davb1> ;-)

[15:43] < ms-afk> nah, people can disagree

[15:43] < ms-afk> I'm used to being the one with my opinion

[15:44] < Davb1> Think we'll see Qt on there vmlemon_?

[15:44] < Davb1> nothing wrong with that ms-afk

[15:44] < ms-afk> indeed

[15:44] < ms-afk> just means they're wrong ;-) :-p

[15:44] < Davb1> :-D

[15:44] < vmlemon_> Hmm, interesting question, seeing as Nokia own both Trolltech and Symbian now...

[15:45] < vmlemon_> Maybe they could make a "Symbian OS Personality" for Maemo, and ship it on a new phone...

[15:45] < Davb1> Maemo?

[15:45] < Davb1> Hmm, what's that?

[15:45] < vmlemon_> Nokia's open source, GTK-based environment for Internet tablets...

[15:46] < Davb1> GTK?

[15:46] < vmlemon_> (Happens to be based on Linux)

[15:46] < vmlemon_> GNOME's toolkit/widget set

[15:46] < vmlemon_> as ugly as it is ;)

[15:46] < Davb1> hehe

[15:47] < vmlemon_> I'd be interested to see how they'd deal with the DRM-specific code in the Symbian OS release

[15:48] < vmlemon_> Especially seeing as the environments/components that run on top of it (Series 60/S60 and UIQ) also have DRM-related components, and are supposedly being open sourced

[15:49] < Davb1> I first said it was response to Google and Android, with the similarities, open-source etc. However ms-afk said about the iPhone and i suppose realistically they must be losing so much of the market to the iPhone ms-afk is right

[15:49] < vmlemon_> It could make it even easier to break it

[15:49] < ms-afk> Davb1: There is no "right" unless you hear from them. Both sets of speculation are valid

[15:49] < ms-afk> :)

[15:50] *** Davb1 is now known as Davbo

[15:50] < Davbo> Bloody Pidgin.

[15:50] < vmlemon_> Bad Birdie!

[15:50] < ms-afk> Catch the Pidgin!

[15:50] < ms-afk> Catch the Pidgin!

[15:51] < Davbo> hehe

[15:51] < vmlemon_> Hah

[15:51] < Davbo> /msg NickServ identify password

[15:51] < Davbo> blah

[15:51] < Davbo> :/

[15:51] < Davbo> guess I should change that.

[15:51] < Davbo> lol

[15:52] < Davbo> Yet again - bloody Pidgin

[15:53] < vmlemon_> Konversation krashes here, if I minimise the window whilst it's connecting for some weird reason ;)

[15:55] < ms-afk> Don't worry, it's not as if the channle is logged.

[15:55] < ms-afk> oh

[15:55] < ms-afk> hold on

[15:55] < Davbo> Hehe

[15:55] < Davbo> it's only my nick anyway ms-afk

[15:56] < vmlemon_> You mean the log bot doesn't? ;)

[15:57] < Davbo> It will get translated into LOL speak anyway vmlemon_ ;-)

[15:58] < vmlemon_> Komprezzed? ;)

[15:59] < vmlemon_> I think the rogs need mole Engrish, these days ;)

[16:01] < Davbo> I think it was because i'd copied and pasted a bit which was in bold in Pidgin so it broke.

[16:01] < Davbo> Clumsy me

[16:02] < vmlemon_> Ouch

[16:02] *** j_baker-laptop has joined #kamaelia

[16:08] < j_baker-laptop> Hmmm... my OpenSolaris CD just came in.

[16:09] < Davbo> Coool

[16:09] < Davbo> So cool I added an extra o

[16:09] < j_baker-laptop> heh...

[16:10] < Davbo> (it was a typo)

[16:10] < j_baker-laptop> Anyway, I suppose I'll find out for myself how good OpenSolaris is.

[16:11] < ms-afk> I'd try it inside a virtual box first myself...

[16:11] < ms-afk> (heard about it from someone at sun who works on open solaris as their day work and they mention how odd it seems to see open solaris running under windows, but that it did all work as it would normally)

[16:12] < j_baker-laptop> Oh, I've got a copy of VMWare Fusion on my macbook. I wouldn't dream of trying it as my main OS on any of my computers until I get an idea of how stable it is.

[16:13] < j_baker-laptop> The reviews I've read have both included the phrase "work in progress."

[16:29] < Davbo> Hmm I don't trust distro reviews

[16:31] < Davbo> Having said that I do like to read www.distro-review.com before I try a distro out

[16:32] < j_baker-laptop> It's already looking like those were valid though. The live cd won't even boot in vmware on my macbook.

[16:33] < Davbo> Really?

[16:33] < Davbo> What happens?

[16:33] < j_baker-laptop> It hangs at the Preparing live image for use

[16:38] < Davbo> Can you get to a verbose mode there?

[16:39] < vmlemon_> No text-mode installer on the OpenSolaris CD

[16:39] < j_baker-laptop> Yeah there is.

[16:40] < j_baker-laptop> Well, it depends on what you mean by text-mode installer.

[16:41] < j_baker-laptop> There's a "console mode" which I believe is similar to crux's installer (shudder).

[16:42] < j_baker-laptop> And even if I try that, it does the exact same thing. :/

[16:45] < j_baker-laptop> I suppose I should try it using VirtualBox. It'd better work there considering they were both made by Sun.

[16:45] < Davbo> I'm surprised VMWare doesn't work tbh

[16:45] < j_baker-laptop> Me too. I've had nothing but good luck with VMWare.

[16:46] < j_baker-laptop> But this IS Sun we're talking about here. :)

[16:54] *** mhrd-mtgs is now known as mhrd-afk

[17:02] *** ms-afk wonders why Trun didn't say anything

[17:02] < Davbo> Cool! http://www.scan.co.uk/

[17:03] < Davbo> They've made it pretty

[17:03] < Davbo> Trun is always quiet, i've tried to get him on IRC more

[17:03] < Davbo> he misses all the cool stuff like me pasting my passwords by accident

[17:06] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[17:08] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[17:09] < Davbo> Good job they redesigned Scan I never liked having to mouseover things to bring up the menus on here

[17:09] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[17:12] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[17:12] *** mhrd-afk has parted #kamaelia

[17:14] < j_baker-laptop> pasting passwords on accident? Damn. I guess I missed that one too.

[17:14] < Davbo> it was just my irc password fortunately - changed it on both the IRC servers I go on now

[17:15] < Davbo> I use this http://supergenpass.com/ so it's no problem :-)

[17:16] < Davbo> brb

[17:29] < Davbo> ms-afk: What's Truns name on the commits?

[17:29] < ms-afk> Pablo

[17:29] < ms-afk> nctrun@users.sourceforge.net

[17:29] < Davbo> oh i see him

[17:30] < ms-afk> I'm actually very concerned that he's developing his code in complete isolation from everyone

[17:30] < ms-afk> There's no point in developing a test framework in isolation from reality

[17:30] < ms-afk> It just won't get used by anyone

[17:31] *** bcarlyon|laptop has joined #kamaelia

[17:32] < Davbo> Yeah, if you're developing something core like that it really needs to be done by asking people how they want it to be

[17:32] *** bcarlyon|laptop has parted #kamaelia

[17:32] < Davbo> it's a tool for developers essentially

[17:33] < Davbo> it's not too late though ms-afk

[17:39] *** vmlemon_ once pasted a "live" password in a server configuration file for something once

[17:39] < vmlemon_> Luckilly, no-one attempted to use it, as far as I know

[17:45] < Davbo> Paste can be a powerful ally and an even more powerful enemy ;-)

[17:47] < vmlemon_> Sucks if you use the same password for everything you do though, since once someone knows it for something, they've got everything else

[17:47] < vmlemon_> Even though it is easier

[17:49] < vmlemon_> Argh, FTP's broken here

[17:50] < vmlemon_> I can log in to a server, but I can't actually download anything

[17:50] < vmlemon_> (Gets stuck at the RETR phase and dies)

[18:15] < Davbo> Sure it's not a server problem?

[18:16] < vmlemon_> It's happened with at least 3 servers I've tested, now

[18:16] < Davbo> ah

[18:16] < vmlemon_> Dunno if it's related to changing the MTU on the connection, or an ISP issue

[18:17] < Davbo> sometimes RETR can take quite a while

[18:17] < Davbo> either way you should get a code telling you what went wrong

[18:17] < vmlemon_> I have a feeling that it's getting reset at the TCP level, although I ought to pull Wireshark out to check

[18:18] < vmlemon_> At least I've had several HTTP connections reset when trying to download files larger than a couple of hundred KB for some reason

[18:18] < vmlemon_> (Even images in web pages, which is weird, if not annoying)

[18:19] < Davbo> What's the MTU?

[18:19] < vmlemon_> What's it set to?

[18:19] < vmlemon_> Or what does it refer to?

[18:19] < Davbo> What's it set to

[18:19] < vmlemon_> Just going to check

[18:19] < Davbo> Sorry should have been clear :)

[18:19] < vmlemon_> 1440

[18:20] < vmlemon_> (I did have it set to 1445 and earlier 1450)

[18:21] < Davbo> pretty standard

[18:21] < Davbo> doubt that's causing problems / depending on your setup

[18:22] < vmlemon_> I think it was much higher, before I reconfigured PPPd to use 1440

[18:22] < vmlemon_> Not sure though, without disconnecting and changing PPPd/KPPP's settings to remove the MTU string

[18:24] < vmlemon_> It'd be nice if there was a known, "optimal" setting for GPRS/PPP connections, although there doesn't seem to be

[18:24] < vmlemon_> Or at least Google isn't helping

[18:26] < vmlemon_> Going to try 1425

[18:27] < vmlemon_> 1500 is suggested by a forum post I saw mentioned in a result synopsis

[18:28] < vmlemon_> another says 576

[18:30] < Davbo> http://www.net42.co.uk/os/linux/ppp_gprs_tuning.html

[18:30] < vmlemon_> I'll try that, and see what happens...

[18:30] < vmlemon_> Thanks for the link

[18:30] < Davbo> if that's any use for you vmlemon_

[18:30] < vmlemon_> Looking now

[18:31] < vmlemon_> Interesting

[18:32] < vmlemon_> Never thought of setting the MRU, too

[18:33] < Davbo> Worth a try :)

[18:34] < Davbo> A guy was just here from Zurich insurance and he had an O2 dongle of some kind for his laptop

[18:34] < Davbo> he said it connected at 9mb/s

[18:34] < vmlemon_> Interesting

[18:34] < Davbo> Enough for him to play World of Warcraft lol :)

[18:35] < vmlemon_> 3G?

[18:35] < Davbo> Might have been 3G or something I don't know much about it tbh

[18:36] < vmlemon_> Hmm, which part of the country? (Just wondering, since O2 don't do 3G everywhere)

[18:36] < Davbo> Sheffield but he had come here from Southport

[18:36] < Davbo> he noted the connection was bad here

[18:36] < vmlemon_> Aah

[18:36] < vmlemon_> Kind of sucks that the only operator here to offer nationwide 3G offers an extremely crippled pre-paid "Internet" service

[18:36] < vmlemon_> (It's HTTP only, and through a weird proxy)

[18:37] < vmlemon_> *HTTP on port 80 only

[18:37] < Davbo> ouch

[18:37] < vmlemon_> (3)

[18:38] < vmlemon_> I used them for about 2 or 3 years, until I lost my phone on a train

[18:38] < Davbo> :-(

[18:39] < Davbo> Right, off to get something to eat.

[18:39] < Davbo> back later

[18:39] < vmlemon_> They seemed decent otherwise, despite people whinging about them constantluy

[18:39] < vmlemon_> *constantly

[18:39] < vmlemon_> Back in a sec

[18:43] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[19:04] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[19:26] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[19:28] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[19:30] < ms-afk> hah, I have a genuine heisenbug

[19:30] < ms-afk> If I look at the thing I'm examining, it changes meaning that the result changes

[19:32] < ms-afk> Typical - st_atime :)

[21:00] *** xmlhacker_ has joined #kamaelia

[21:06] *** Trun has joined #kamaelia

[23:33] *** ms-afk has been building an image and video transcoding engine this evening

[23:33] < ms-afk> so far so good

[23:34] *** vmlemon_ is giving up on FTP for tonight

[23:34] < vmlemon_> It's drove me mad for hours, now

[23:35] < ms-afk> I guess you fiddled with EPSV, PASV & PORT modes extensively ?

[23:35] < vmlemon_> Yup

[23:35] < ms-afk> Pain when that happens

[23:36] < vmlemon_> I could download some files from a directory, but not certain ones containing a hash symbol in the name, or of a certain file size

[23:37] < vmlemon_> At most, it'd time out with a 421 error, at least my FTP client would get stuck as soon as it issues a RETR

[23:37] < ms-afk> wierd

[23:37] < vmlemon_> and then do nothing at all

[23:37] < ms-afk> sounds like a broken transparent proxy

[23:37] < vmlemon_> Even the server admin is stumped

[23:38] < vmlemon_> Wireshark hasn't helped either

[23:41] < vmlemon_> I'm sure there's probably some out-of-bound thing going on related to lunar phase and the number of dust particles on a roof in Mexico ;)

[23:41] < vmlemon_> Or so it seems

[23:41] < vmlemon_> *out-of-band