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[11:40] < MS-> greetings

[11:40] < MS-> glad all that stuff is out the (for now) - can now carry on with this stuff :-)

[11:43] < Lawouach> hello MS-

[11:43] < MS-> How's things?

[11:44] < MS-> It just struck me - is there anything in particular that you think really ought to be on the trunk for merge for the new release ?

[11:45] < Lawouach> Well I'm using K. mainly for networking stuff and so far everything I needed was already there. Except for the SSL stuff that has been merged already.

[11:45] < Lawouach> So off the top of my head, no.

[11:46] < MS-> Cool. Really wanted to check that though :)

[11:47] < Lawouach> ta

[11:50] < MS-> I've also decided to look at virtual box to see if there's a way of better supporting windows people

[11:52] < Lawouach> good idea

[11:52] < Lawouach> what are the specific shortcomings of Kamaelia when it comes to Windows?

[11:53] < vmlemon_> I reckon that DVB stuff (or lack thereof) might be

[11:54] < vmlemon_> Although, that's probably very OS specific

[11:55] < MS-> Lawouach: Mainly dependencies on specific libraries which are linux specific

[11:56] < MS-> I'd expect a mature (version 1.0) version of kamaelia to detect whether the libraries required exist to support the functionality requested really

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[11:56] < MS-> ie move from asking of an Alsa or similar sound output to just asking for a sound output, and potentially allowing tweaking for the OS

[11:57] < Lawouach> I see

[11:57] < MS-> much like the differences between windows & linux are masked by both python as far as possible then further by the TCPIP components

[11:57] < MS-> In all cases though it should be "only as far as sensible, but no further"

[11:57] < vmlemon_> Isn't there a generic Python module for audio?

[11:57] < MS-> vmlemon_: Not for audio capture

[11:57] < vmlemon_> Aah

[11:58] < MS-> For audio playback, pygame is probably the closest you get

[11:58] < MS-> as you move to multiple audio sources it gets more problematic

[12:00] < Lawouach> What about pymedia on Windows?

[12:00] < vmlemon_> SDL?

[12:01] < vmlemon_> Won't they paper the cracks for audio?

[12:01] < vmlemon_> *it

[12:02] < Lawouach> puygame is SDL

[12:02] < Lawouach> pymedia is gstreamer based

[12:02] < vmlemon_> Aah, OK

[12:02] < MS-> Lawouach: pymedia should world nicer

[12:02] < MS-> s/nicer/nicely/

[12:03] *** MS- though pymedia was wrappers round libavcodec rather than gstreamer

[12:05] < Lawouach> I thought they had moved to gstreamer mainly now

[12:05] < Lawouach> could be wrong

[12:09] < Lawouach> seems I was wrong

[12:10] < Lawouach> is there a license or packaging issue with libavcodec on windows?

[12:10] < MS-> Regarding packaging/licensing of I have no clue.

[12:10] < MS-> Technically they probably can't do anything with it because libavcodec actually implements lots of patented codecs

[12:11] < MS-> which puts it into a really really grey area

[12:11] < MS-> to put it mildly

[12:11] < Lawouach> HMM

[12:11] < Lawouach> I wonder how a product like Vlc does it

[12:11] < Lawouach> ah well

[12:11] < MS-> It doesn't - it has the same issue

[12:12] < MS-> gstreamer is unusual in that someone *has* paid the license fees

[12:12] < MS-> The problem isn't actually limited to those areas though

[12:13] < MS-> For example consumer cameras with MP4 encoding support only *technically* have a license for use in a domestic setting (at least some cameras)

[12:13] < MS-> which means using them to make a video short, seems reasonable

[12:13] < MS-> unless it becomes popular, and then someone goes "ooh, we could do something with this"

[12:13] < MS-> Suddenly you hit all sorts of nasty issues

[12:14] < MS-> Basically because software patents are nuts :)

[12:14] < Lawouach> I see

[12:15] < Lawouach> In such case using a binding like pymedia would be fine as long as you don't distribute libavcodec along

[12:15] < Lawouach> right?

[12:15] < Lawouach> Meaning it's one extra step for the user

[12:16] < MS-> yes

[12:16] < MS-> That'd be my understanding as well

[12:17] < MS-> It's also why I think libavcodec is hosted in hungary these days - because of laws in that country

[12:17] < MS-> basically meaning they can distribute it, shifting the onus onto the person who recieves it for it to be legal for them to have a copy

[12:18] *** MS- software patentsare awful IMO - they don't make the world a better place

[12:33] < vmlemon_> Anyone know when the Fraunhofer/Thomson MP3 patents expire?

[12:34] < vmlemon_> Ugh, the LZW/GIF fiasco, anyone?

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[15:56] < MS-> back later

[15:56] < MS-> cya

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[19:24] < MS-> evening

[19:25] < Lawouach> evening

[19:28] < MS-> I now have XP in a virtualbox (as in www.virtualbox.org)

[19:28] < MS-> which seems to work as advertised

[19:34] < Lawouach> good

[19:36] < Lawouach> I'm watching a fascinating british documentary about Stonehenge.

[19:36] < Lawouach> I went there once and was disapointed

[19:36] < Lawouach> Not by the stones but the way it's by two roads

[19:36] < Lawouach> That was rather unexpected and annoying.

[19:37] < MS-> Are they busy roads ?

[19:37] < MS-> I've not been there and probably ought to really

[19:38] < Lawouach> One is rather busy but farther. The other one is not actually that busy, mainly the traffic to visit the site

[19:38] < Lawouach> But I was rather surprised nonetheless

[19:39] < Lawouach> Other than that it's inspiring to be there.

[19:39] < MS-> I see. Sounds cool still :)

[19:39] < Lawouach> Yes it is :)

[19:43] < Lawouach> One thing I enjoyed not far from there is the steam train http://www.watercressline.co.uk/

[19:44] < Lawouach> It's particularly nice in summer and if you have children as you can make a day of it (there are activities at each station)

[19:44] < Lawouach> The ride was fun

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[20:34] < vmlemon_> Hi

[21:07] < MS-> Train sounds like a lot of fun :)

[21:08] < MS-> I'm sure the kids would enjoy it :)

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[21:28] *** MS- finds this

[21:28] < MS-> http://blog.red-bean.com/sussman/?p=96

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[21:39] < MS-> Interesting concept: http://www.codingdojo.org/

[21:50] *** MS- realises he has no clue of what a decent command line console is for windows beyond cygwin

[21:53] < vmlemon_> GNUWin32 utilities with Microsoft PowerShell work well for me, although I don't use the CLI on Windows very often

[21:53] < MS-> cheers :)

[21:53] < vmlemon_> It probably works with the Cygwin tools, too

[21:54] < vmlemon_> Although I only tested the former, since they were easier/faster to install on a slow connection

[22:01] < vmlemon_> "Your Milage May Vary" though, as they say

[22:02] < MS-> indeed - thanks for the tip though :)

[22:02] < MS-> (will probably try that tomorrow)

[22:03] < vmlemon_> (Or kilometrage? for our European friends ;) )

[22:03] < vmlemon_> Assuming that it is even a word...

[22:06] *** vmlemon_ was shocked at how much dust had built up in his old, unused for ages desktop/server machine, when he was dismantling and reassembling it, to try and make it boot again, earlier

[22:12] < vmlemon_> I'm amazed that it still works, given that it's nearly 7 years old

[22:13] < vmlemon_> and the CMOS battery is well and truly dead

[23:36] < Chong-> gotta sleep. night, all.

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