[06:05] *** bcarlyon|ubuntu has joined #kamaelia

[07:25] *** Lawouach has joined #kamaelia

[09:39] *** orphans has joined #kamaelia

[10:18] *** orphans has joined #kamaelia

[11:01] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[11:02] < vmlemon_> Hi

[11:16] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[11:53] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[13:14] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[13:14] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[13:26] *** bcarlyon|laptop has joined #kamaelia

[13:42] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[14:22] *** ms- has joined #kamaelia

[14:22] < ms-> afternoon

[14:22] < ms-> Pointless: trivia factoid - at work I get 1 spam every pi minutes

[14:23] < ms-> (458 spams at the end of the day yesterday, 456 day before)

[14:23] < ms-> >>> (24*60)/math.pi

[14:23] < ms-> 458.36623610465858

[14:23] < vmlemon_> Ouch, sounds fun

[14:23] < ms-> Well, the tool I've written massively assists

[14:24] < ms-> Which is why I can step back and start analysing the problem

[14:24] < ms-> Getting something that remembers "that'd get deleted" is useful

[14:30] < Lawouach> I'm amazed the BBC doesn't deal with it

[14:30] < Lawouach> They must pay a hell of bandwith

[14:31] < Lawouach> I mean that's just insane as I guess you're not the only one in that case

[14:31] < vmlemon_> It's probably not even a dent, given that they have LINX pairing and very high-speed connectivity, although I don't know if that applies to their internal operations...

[14:33] < Lawouach> I guess they would pay attention if the government was to decide it had enough with spam coming back and forth the BBC and start taxing the BBC

[14:33] < Lawouach> I mean I assume that spam goes in and out of the BBC network

[14:33] < Lawouach> ven if it doesn't bother the BBC per se, it bothers their user probably to a certain extent

[14:36] < Lawouach> Is it me or you can't hear any sound in orphans's video?

[14:44] < ms-> Lawouach: I think my spam is hitting some very strange corner cases in the BBC's network.

[14:44] < Lawouach> okay

[14:45] < ms-> Mainly because I've shifted locations between different mail systems and don't use the official desktop (since R&I don't)

[14:45] < ms-> Looks like in the process I have multiple mail systems all assuming the other one deals with the issue

[14:46] < ms-> But as vmlemon_ says, network bandwidth wise, it's barely even noise on the system

[14:49] < ms-> Lawouach: I can't even see the video :-)

[14:49] < ms-> Ooh, now I can

[14:49] < Lawouach> do you have sound?

[14:49] < ms-> No

[14:49] < ms-> There's no sound by the looks of things

[14:50] < ms-> Ah, yes, that's an issu

[14:50] < ms-> he's trying to use the console as a subtitling thing

[14:50] < ms-> Which doesn't work on the flash link

[14:50] < ms-> http://www.vimeo.com/1127967

[14:50] < ms-> I'll have to introduce him (at minimum) to the ticker

[14:51] < Lawouach> I don't follow

[14:51] < ms-> Since, ironically, that was actually written to demo showing subtitles

[14:51] < ms-> If you look in the konsole/terminal

[14:51] < ms-> he's typing subtitles

[14:51] < ms-> They're just unreadable

[14:52] < Lawouach> yes

[14:53] *** vmlemon_ was just thinking "What's 5-300KB of data to a 1Gbit+ fibre connection, exactly?"...

[14:53] < ms-> The ticker or (even more ironically the code he was reviewing on the branch

[14:54] < ms-> would make it more readable

[14:54] < ms-> (the code he's reviewed is based - at least in part - on the ticker)

[14:54] < vmlemon_> Still, you'd think they'd at least try to reduce the impact on the users

[14:55] < vmlemon_> Heaven help them, if they're using Exchange servers...

[14:55] < ms-> vmlemon_: There are spam systems. Problem is I moved between systems, but unlike anyone else who's done that I didn't shift dept, so needed both active

[14:55] < ms-> upshot is each appears to trust the other to deal with the problem

[14:55] < vmlemon_> Aah

[14:56] < ms-> They use exchange internally, and something sensible externally IIRC

[14:58] < vmlemon_> Dunno how well Exchange would cope with a deluge of spam to multiple accounts, although I can see it being a nightmare to administrate when that happens for some reason

[15:00] < vmlemon_> Yay, I've managed to transfer 10MB of a 20MB file so far, without my connection cutting out completely

[15:00] < vmlemon_> (Which usually happens, around the 3-5MB mark)

[15:00] *** ms- has no idea - that's all handled by someone else. I'm picking up the pieces. The thing is though, if I do automate it, I can pass it back and say "this will help the BBC save money", which is one aspect of R&I really.

[15:00] < ms-> Whilst we do have specific areas we tend to work on, things which save money/effort etc are considered useful.

[15:01] < ms-> It's perhaps why people look at Kamaelia's components and go "wuhAH ug?" when looking "what's the specific focus here"

[15:01] < vmlemon_> Better spam filtering would certainly be effort/time-saving, if nothing else...

[15:01] < vmlemon_> Although you've already mentioned that they do try to...

[15:01] < ms-> Due to the fact it reflects building a bunch of different components in different areas for different projects.

[15:02] < ms-> vmlemon_: Yeah, but clearly at least one person has issues

[15:02] < ms-> (ie me) with the current system

[15:02] < vmlemon_> Asking other people in the same department, and maybe in other departments could be interesting

[15:02] < ms-> The time I've spent on this is now outweighed by the time saved by using it

[15:03] < ms-> vmlemon_: Maybe. Thing is, I am getting significant amounts of spam caught, so it's not quite as simple as it could be

[15:03] < ms-> The problem in a way stems from the age of the BBC internet systems - and how they've grown & evolved

[15:03] < vmlemon_> Sounds good

[15:04] < ms-> If you we doing it today, you'd say "OK, lets build a system to service everyone, and it needs to do this, that , the other and we'll handle these special cases in this way"

[15:04] < ms-> But the bbc is spread over sites worldwide, not just UK

[15:04] < ms-> some small, some large

[15:04] < ms-> some needing local delivery (realistically), some not

[15:05] < ms-> And it's evolved to where it is now over a 20 year period

[15:05] < ms-> (given the bbc has been connected to the net for about that long)

[15:06] < vmlemon_> Full of quirks, traps and annoyances, I assume?

[15:06] < ms-> Yep

[15:06] < ms-> And like any network that age, there's not just one, but multiple people who will say "It's done this way" which conflict

[15:07] < ms-> Whereas in practice there's a variety of approaches that will work, equally well

[15:07] < ms-> which means there's barriers, problems networks & quirks

[15:07] *** vmlemon_ imagines it to be put together like a baroque castle or a patchwork quilt... ;)

[15:08] < ms-> hence why edit.kamaelia.org is only visible *inside* the "main" part of the BBC by hosting the DNS for that outside the BBC's network completely

[15:08] < ms-> I think it's more like a patchwork quilt of baroque castles

[15:08] < ms-> Some parts make huge sense, others don't

[15:08] < vmlemon_> Hah

[15:09] < ms-> j_baker's packaging for mac/linux is interesting & novel

[15:09] < vmlemon_> Not sure if things would be very different again for the various commercial/"satellite" parts of the BBC (e.g. BBC Worldwide, BBC America and so on)...

[15:09] < vmlemon_> Although I don't see why they wouldn't be

[15:09] < ms-> The commercial bits are handled differently

[15:09] < ms-> they have to be for accounting reasons

[15:10] < ms-> as well as non-compete ones I think

[15:11] *** Lawouach needs to spend time on j_baker's packaging idea

[15:11] < Lawouach> I'm curious

[15:14] < vmlemon_> Urgh, 781MB of files in /var/log

[15:14] *** vmlemon_ ought to clean them out, some time

[15:14] < ms-> It just runs

[15:15] < ms-> But it uses a trick of bash to make it happen

[15:17] < ms-> (a fairly common one)

[15:20] < ms-> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/215301

[15:21] < ms-> Note to j_baker, thanks for creditting the book - it's probably nice to credit the author of the recipe as well, which is Joerg Raedler

[15:22] *** ms- makes sure the note goes on the list as well

[15:41] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[15:42] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[16:56] *** bcarlyon|laptop has joined #kamaelia

[17:57] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[17:59] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[18:03] *** bcarlyon|laptop has joined #kamaelia

[18:42] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[18:42] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[18:53] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[18:53] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[19:13] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[19:15] < Davbo> ms-, s/David/Dave on the next minutes please :-) - I keep wondering who David is ;-)

[19:21] < Davbo> Unless you'd like to keep it extra formal, I'd rather people call me Dave than David though fyi :-)

[19:23] *** Davbo ends his "Call me Tony"esque campaign

[19:26] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[19:41] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[19:47] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[19:49] *** bcarlyon|laptop has joined #kamaelia

[19:52] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[19:59] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[20:06] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[20:06] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[20:14] < Davbo> Freenode hates me today, evidently

[20:17] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[20:19] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[20:21] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[20:41] *** ms- notes Davbo's comment in the log

[20:42] < ms-> often finds it weird mentioning people's real names on IRC, rather than their Nicks so minutes as a little odd. :)

[20:42] < ms-> Putting IRC nicks in minutes reads odder though

[20:57] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[21:01] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[21:02] *** vmlemon has joined #kamaelia

[21:47] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[23:01] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia