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[07:49] < ms-abit-away> morning

[07:49] *** ms-abit-away says "hurrah" for his new spam assist tool

[07:50] < ms-abit-away> killed 90 of the 130 spams from overnight, now configured for the new 40 types

[07:50] < ms-abit-away> total time killing them today 5-10 minutes

[07:50] < ms-abit-away> as opposed to all day yesterday

[08:31] < ms-abit-away> http://edit.kamaelia.org/KamaeliaSpamAssistant

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[08:44] < vmlemon_> Hi

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[17:12] *** ms-abit-away gets whacked with a clue stick about what the date 21st June 2008 will be

[17:13] < ms-abit-away> aside from just BBC Mashed then

[17:13] < ms-abit-away> and aside form just midsummer's day...

[17:13] < ms-abit-away> It's also the 60th anniversary of the invention of the computer

[17:14] < vmlemon_> o.O http://www.omglists.com/article/68593/the-9-most-misleading-toy-commercials-of-the-80s/

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[18:02] *** ms-abit-away refactors http://edit.kamaelia.org/Developers/Projects slightly

[18:03] *** ms-abit-away edits http://edit.kamaelia.org/Developers/Direction to be less cheesy (hopefully)

[18:03] *** ms-abit-away thinks that page needs a bit more ronseal attitude to it

[18:03] < j_baker> It's better than the IKEA line

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[18:27] < mhrd> "It's also the 60th anniversary of the invention of the computer" ... ! really?! grrr ... and I'm at a *%!"£$ wedding and won't be able to be there :-( :-(

[18:28] < mhrd> :-)

[18:28] *** mhrd is now known as mhrd-afk

[18:30] < vmlemon_> o.O "Total Google searches: 6777"

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[19:04] < ms-abit-away> mhrd-afk: Yes

[19:04] < ms-abit-away> 60th

[19:04] < ms-abit-away> I should've noticed somewhat sooner

[19:05] < ms-abit-away> (given it was the 50th when I graduated, and there were LOTS of banners up all over the place - I even have a graduation photo standing infront of one of them)

[19:05] < j_baker> ms-abit-away: if you get a moment, could you tell me if you know of any python packagers that allow for dynamic importing?

[19:05] < ms-abit-away> What are you after?

[19:06] < j_baker> Well, as my program stands right now, it dynamically imports the WSGI application and runs it.

[19:06] < j_baker> Which py2app doesn't support

[19:06] < ms-abit-away> >>> X =__import__("Kamaelia")

[19:06] < ms-abit-away> >>> X

[19:06] < ms-abit-away> < module 'Kamaelia' from '/usr/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/Kamaelia/__init__.pyc'>

[19:07] < ms-abit-away> I think I need something a little more concrete I'm afraid

[19:08] < j_baker> Well, as I understand, py2app converts python into Objective-C

[19:08] < ms-abit-away> No, it doesn't

[19:08] < ms-abit-away> Ah, I see your misunderstanding then

[19:08] < j_baker> Really? When my code gets to the portion where it calls __import__ it throws an exception

[19:08] < ms-abit-away> You thought py2exe, py2app turn the code into binaries

[19:09] < ms-abit-away> which don't include the python runtime ?

[19:09] < ms-abit-away> What's the specific exception?

[19:09] < j_baker> The module couldn't be found.

[19:10] < j_baker> I'm guessing it's looking for the module within the bundle then

[19:10] < ms-abit-away> I'd suggest fiddling extensively with sys.path in that case :)

[19:12] < j_baker> Hmmmm... I'll double check that.

[19:13] < j_baker> I did see in the documentation where it said py2app doesn't support __import__, but I'm hoping that that's just for packaging it up.

[19:13] < ms-abit-away> Python can be compiled - by pypy and by shedskin - the former to C the latter to C++, but neither does unrestricted python, but a restricted subset.

[19:13] < ms-abit-away> Really?

[19:13] < ms-abit-away> Quite probably

[19:13] < ms-abit-away> (re just for packaging)

[19:13] < j_baker> I'll give it a shot and if it still doesn't work, I'll contact the py2app people.

[19:14] < ms-abit-away> http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy/browse_thread/thread/20c19df7a6c9f30d - seems to be related to how py2app figures out which modules to include in the bundle

[19:15] < ms-abit-away> import < ...>

[19:15] < ms-abit-away> and

[19:15] < ms-abit-away> from < ...> import < ...>

[19:15] < ms-abit-away> are supported for "auto-figuring-it-out"

[19:15] < ms-abit-away> but not __import__

[19:15] < j_baker> http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/Current/pyobjc-14.1.1/pyobjc/stable/py2app/doc/

[19:16] < j_baker> Some Python packages are written in such a way that they aren't compatible with being packaged. There are two main causes of this:

[19:16] < ms-abit-away> heh, I was reading that

[19:16] < j_baker> Using __import__ or otherwise importing code without usage of the import statement.

[19:16] < ms-abit-away> Yes, that looks like it's to do with packaging.

[19:16] < ms-abit-away> It shouldn't stop you doing this:

[19:16] < ms-abit-away> sys.path.append("random location")

[19:16] < ms-abit-away> then __importing__

[19:17] < j_baker> Hmm... Sounds like an idea.

[19:17] < ms-abit-away> It'd just stop the packager from ensuring the right files are in

[19:17] < ms-abit-away> "random location"

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> ~> python

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> Python 2.5.1 (r251:54863, Jan 10 2008, 18:01:57)

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> [GCC 4.2.1 (SUSE Linux)] on linux2

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> >>> X=__import__("Actions")

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> Traceback (most recent call last):

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> File "< stdin>", line 1, in < module>

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> ImportError: No module named Actions

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> I then do

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> >>> import sys

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> >>> sys.path.append("kamaelia/trunk/Sketches/MPS")

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> and presto

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> >>> X=__import__("Actions")

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> loading Actions

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> >>> X

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> < module 'Actions' from 'kamaelia/trunk/Sketches/MPS/Actions.pyc'>

[19:18] < ms-abit-away> Which I suspect mirrors the problem you're seeing

[19:19] < ms-abit-away> I'd make "random path" an absolute path (ie leading / ) if i were you - at least initially

[19:20] < j_baker> Well, I have the file in a package (with __init__.py) in a subdir below the executable right now.

[19:20] < j_baker> So all I should need is the current directory in sys.path, right?

[19:21] < j_baker> although that may work out differently with py2app now that I think about it

[19:21] < j_baker> Alright, I'll play around with it for a little bit and see what I come up with.

[19:44] < ms-abit-away> py2app may have a rather novel idea of what the current directory is

[19:44] < ms-abit-away> I'd suggest playing around a bit

[19:49] < j_baker> brb

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[19:52] < j_baker> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/2007-October/019322.html

[19:52] < j_baker> He's suggesting macpython for this kind of thing...

[19:52] < ms-abit-away> I don't think it's an issue here...

[19:52] < ms-abit-away> fwiw

[19:53] < j_baker> If it is, I wouldn't want to use macpython anyway. It's more trouble than it's worth in my experience

[19:54] < ms-abit-away> macpython predates (at least originally) Apple packaging python with the Mac

[19:54] < ms-abit-away> Which is just asking for it IMO

[19:54] < ms-abit-away> My suggestion is to package up something *absolutely minimal*

[19:55] < ms-abit-away> And fiddle with __import__'s then

[19:57] < j_baker> Yup. If nothing else, it wouldn't be too difficult to use static imports until I can get something figured out.

[19:59] *** ms-abit-away notes this for anyone interested who can get there: http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/Digital60/Kilburn/schedule/

[20:10] < j_baker> Aha. You were right about sys.path

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[20:37] < j_baker> Hello Davbo

[20:38] < Davbo> Hi guys

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[20:42] < Davbo> I love university email asking you to participate in studies

[20:43] < Davbo> some of them are the weirdest things " I am conducting a study about 'The Folklore of Menstruation'"

[20:43] < j_baker> Heh... For me, it's always "please take this survey."

[20:43] < j_baker> :o

[20:43] < Davbo> Yeah they usually boil down to a survey

[20:43] < Davbo> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=vLc6ilOUetYNALuEjYHMBQ_3d_3d

[20:43] < Davbo> :P

[20:44] < j_baker> The CS department at my school is the worst. They send me an email like every other day wanting me to take a survey. Fortunately, there are junk mail lists. :)

[20:44] < Davbo> I've helped out one of my lecturers for his research

[20:45] < Davbo> had to read out a load of words in a sound booth for him

[20:46] < j_baker> In the CS department?

[20:46] < Davbo> well not really words, it was trying to get sounds of things like, there would be 'ava and ava' where you stress the leading vowel and ending vowel respectively

[20:46] < Davbo> yeah

[20:46] < Davbo> Speech and Hearing research group in Computer Science

[20:46] < j_baker> Ah.

[20:46] < j_baker> That makes sense.

[20:47] < Davbo> oooo

[20:47] < Davbo> this one sounds cool

[20:47] < Davbo> I am an MD student looking for volunteers who would be willing to spend 90

[20:47] < Davbo> minutes at the Royal Hallamshire Hospital investigating the areas of the brain

[20:47] < Davbo> that control speaking.

[20:47] < Davbo> Electro-magnetic pulses will be used to stimulate the

[20:47] < Davbo> brain using Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS). This causes a temporary

[20:47] < Davbo> disruption of speech. The disruption lasts only for seconds. It is safe and

[20:47] < Davbo> non-invasive and you will be recorded as you say words and sentences.

[20:48] < j_baker> That is interesting.

[20:48] < Davbo> Crazy stuff

[20:48] < Davbo> and you get £15! students will do anything for £15

[20:48] < Davbo> lol weirdest thing about that one " Volunteers need to be strongly right handed"

[20:49] < j_baker> That's like $1000 USD nowadays. :P

[20:49] < Davbo> ;-)

[20:49] < Davbo> I should take all the cash off the GSOC mastercard before your currency is worthless ;-)

[20:50] < j_baker> Heh... some people were doing the opposite.

[20:51] < Davbo> Wait for it to pick up?

[20:51] < j_baker> Yup.

[20:51] < Davbo> interesting thought

[20:51] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[20:51] < Davbo> i'll move it to my bank account asap though

[20:51] < j_baker> Personally, I say that hedging on currency values is risky.

[20:51] < Davbo> interest will be faster than changes to the USD

[20:52] < j_baker> You mean you actually get paid a decent interest rate?! :o

[20:52] < Davbo> Going to put it into an ISA

[20:53] < j_baker> ISA?

[20:53] < Davbo> it's a special kinda savings account

[20:53] < vmlemon_> What about putting it into Google shares? ;)

[20:53] < Davbo> Heh vmlemon_ :-)

[20:54] < vmlemon_> You'll get even more out of them, then ;)

[20:54] *** Davbo assumes Google don't pay dividends like most tech companies

[20:55] < Davbo> Anyone know?

[20:55] < j_baker> I see. I have a savings account through ING direct that gets 3%. Most other banks give you less than 2% unless you're opening up a CD with a LOT of money.

[20:55] < Davbo> My student account is around 3% this ISA will be closer to 6

[20:55] < Davbo> I think

[20:55] < j_baker> That's a good question. I know Apple has loads of cash that they're not giving away in dividends.

[20:55] *** j_baker ponders opening up a British bank account

[20:56] < Davbo> Going to watch Derren Brown back in a short while.

[20:56] < j_baker> Later

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[23:30] < ms-abit-away> j_baker

[23:30] < ms-abit-away> please note the /topic for the channel :-)

[23:31] < j_baker> Oh. I was wondering what u/p: wiki/wiki meant. :/

[23:31] < ms-abit-away> Wiki here: http://edit.kamaelia.org/ReleaseJune2008 u/p : wiki/wiki

[23:31] < ms-abit-away> username/password

[23:31] < ms-abit-away> ah

[23:32] < j_baker> Ok, I'll put it there.

[23:32] < ms-abit-away> /Developers/Projects/KamaeliaPublish I presume ? :)

[23:33] < j_baker> Yes.

[23:35] < ms-abit-away> I'll ask q's about your schedule on the page when it appears.

[23:35] < j_baker> Got it.

[23:35] < ms-abit-away> (essentially I'm unclear why you want to do this: Convert the server to be an XMPP client instead of using HTTP. :) )

[23:36] < ms-abit-away> But that's purely project reasoning, and highly appropriate to ask there because the answers can then be changed into a FAQ about the what & why :)

[23:36] < ms-abit-away> anyhow, it's really late here, and I should go to bed. (I've been doing lots of random tidying of the website)

[23:36] < j_baker> Ok, good night. :)

[23:37] < Davbo> Night ms-abit-away

[23:37] < ms-abit-away> I'll probably aim to fix the stat-cache in the wiki tomorrow as well to make /RecentChanges more up to date

[23:37] *** Davbo has had too much Red Bull :-)

[23:37] < ms-abit-away> anyhow night all :)

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[23:38] < j_baker> I think any Red Bull is too much Red Bull, but that's just me.

[23:38] *** j_baker loves Java Monster.

[23:39] < Davbo> I should stop drinking so much Caffine really

[23:39] < Davbo> s/caffine/caffeine

[23:40] < j_baker> caffeine is bad for you

[23:41] < Davbo> life's too short to worry about that ;-)

[23:41] < Davbo> (that is a joke btw)

[23:42] < Davbo> I'd hate to see what people do by that logic

[23:42] < vmlemon_> Hi

[23:42] < Davbo> hey vmlemon_

[23:45] < vmlemon_> I'm sure they manage to do all sorts of stupid things ;)

[23:45] < Davbo> Hah, an exam question which boils down to: "How many times does 101 appear in 1010101011010111010100"

[23:46] < j_baker> That would annoy me.

[23:46] < vmlemon_> Sounds fun

[23:46] < Davbo> Well it's told differently

[23:46] < Davbo> with some logic gates and such

[23:47] < vmlemon_> Aah

[23:47] < j_baker> Logic gates are even more annoying.

[23:48] *** j_baker just finished Modern Digital System Design.

[23:48] < j_baker> I'll be happy never to hear about JK Flip Flops ever again. :)

[23:49] < j_baker> Interesting.

[23:49] < j_baker> http://www.spreadfirefox.com/en-US/worldrecord/firefox3

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[23:50] < j_baker> Heh... There's a link there on how to set up a Firefox 3 download party. :P

[23:51] < j_baker> Even I'm not that much of a nerd.

[23:51] < vmlemon_> Haha

[23:54] < Davbo> Agh, flip-flops give me a headache too j_baker

[23:55] < Davbo> Sorry boring too

[23:55] < Davbo> s/sorry/so (*sighs*)

[23:56] < Davbo> Hate it when you get ahead of yourself typing.

[23:57] < j_baker> Yeah. And to make it worse, my professor wasn't exactly the most exciting person in the world.

[23:57] < j_baker> Although it was interesting to hear his tirades about Microsoft. :)

[23:57] < Davbo> Actually that was the best bit in my lectures

[23:57] < Davbo> we had a complete eccentric lecturing

[23:58] < Davbo> One time the computer wasn't working for some reason, he punched the keyboard sent it flying in the air. Then said "Does anyone have a laptop I can use"

[23:58] < vmlemon_> Hah

[23:59] < Davbo> Some guy eventually went up with his laptop and was like "Yeah, i'll help you set it up"

[23:59] < j_baker> Fuck that. I wouldn't have given him my laptop.