[00:04] < ms-> Hm.

[00:05] < ms-> oh yes, remembered

[00:05] < Davbo> Yay thanks vmlemon_

[00:05] < Davbo> we got his work off the drive with that program

[00:05] < ms-> cool

[00:05] < Davbo> just used a live cd and stuck it all on a usb key :)

[00:06] < Davbo> few years ago we'd have been screwed lol

[00:16] < Davbo> Good night out Lawouach?

[00:29] < ms-> Lawouach: One for you - http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2837827.html?menu=news.quirkies

[00:29] < ms-> One of your country's doctors has some advice for you ;-)

[00:29] < ms-> :-D

[01:13] < Trun> ms-, are you still there?

[01:14] < Trun> when you say "I would prefer not to have a commitment at weekends.", you are talking only about meetings, etc.

[01:14] < Trun> and not about someone commiting source to the SVN, right? (just in case I misunderstood anything 0:-) )

[02:08] < Davbo> Just for the logs, i'm certain ms- would be pleased to see all of us commiting on any day of the week :)

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[07:21] < Lawouach> back

[07:22] < Lawouach> ms-: thank you so much for that invaluable piece of information :)

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[10:03] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[10:04] < vmlemon_> Hi

[11:00] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[11:03] < j_baker> I've grown a newfound hatred of hardware companies that publish only proprietary drivers.

[11:03] < Lawouach> like 90% of the market? :)

[11:04] < Lawouach> you're in for a run to find the ones that don't :D

[11:04] < j_baker> True.

[11:04] < j_baker> And it's too bad that almost none of them make any PPC linux drivers.

[11:06] < j_baker> For example, adobe makes a version of flash that works on PPC OS X and a version that works on x86 linux.

[11:06] < j_baker> But no PPC flash.

[11:06] < j_baker> You wouldn't figure it would be that difficult...

[11:09] < Lawouach> indeed

[11:10] < vmlemon_> They already make at least 3 PPC versions of it, plus versions for ARM

[11:13] < j_baker> Not to mention that nVidia makes no PPC linux drivers.

[11:14] < vmlemon_> What about the PS3 Linux version? I think they do one, and it has a PPC CPU

[11:16] < vmlemon_> What about ATI for that matter?

[11:17] < j_baker> I don't believe ATI makes any either.

[11:22] < vmlemon_> Any issues with Apple's semi-proprietary hardware, so far?

[11:22] < j_baker> Nope.

[11:23] < j_baker> The video card's really the only thing that I've had problems with.

[11:24] < vmlemon_> I've always found their machines a real pain to get Linux to even boot on

[11:24] < j_baker> I was actually plesantly surprised. It was pretty easy to get working.

[11:27] < vmlemon_> I've tried various G3 iMacs and several "Old World" machines (mostly Performas), with no success at all to date (since 1999)

[11:28] < j_baker> Yeah, old world machines are pretty much a PITA

[11:28] < j_baker> (Almost every PPC distro now says that it will only work with New World Machines)

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[11:30] < Davbo> afternoon all

[11:30] < vmlemon_> ("Old World" being machines that predated the introduction of Open Firmware)

[11:30] < vmlemon_> Hi Davbo

[11:31] < Davbo> y'alright vmlemon_?

[11:32] < vmlemon_> I've tried LinuxPPC, MkLinux and, Ubuntu up 'til now

[11:32] < vmlemon_> I'm OK

[11:33] < Davbo> j_baker still having problems heh?

[11:33] < j_baker> Well, there's a problem with my graphics card drivers.

[11:34] < j_baker> Not really anything that's a deal breaker for using linux.

[11:34] < vmlemon_> Slightly miffed that tomorrow being a bank holiday scuppered my project site launch plans...

[11:34] < j_baker> But it would be nice to have the prettified compiz stuff.

[11:34] < j_baker> What holiday is tomorrow in the UK?

[11:34] < Davbo> t'is may day

[11:35] < Davbo> :)

[11:35] < j_baker> Heh... isn't that a communist holiday?

[11:36] < Davbo> lol, no :P

[11:36] < vmlemon_> I have no working Ethernet on my laptop under *buntu or Fedora, but the advantages I gain otherwise make it a minor thing

[11:36] < Davbo> it's Labour Day over there isn't it?

[11:36] < j_baker> Well, for us tomorrow is Cinco de Mayo.

[11:37] < j_baker> And yeah, we have labor day, but I'm not sure what the date is.

[11:37] < j_baker> Remember, it's not socialist when WE do it. :P

[11:37] < Davbo> Labour Day should be May 1st

[11:37] < vmlemon_> o.O

[11:38] < vmlemon_> Hmm, and if Brown gets ousted, do we get to rename it to that of the other party?

[11:39] < j_baker> Nope, first monday in September Davbo

[11:39] < vmlemon_> ;)

[11:39] < j_baker> Brown's possibly getting ousted?

[11:40] < vmlemon_> Nah, I was being sarcastic

[11:41] < vmlemon_> He hasn't screwed things up enough, yet ;)

[11:42] < j_baker> Heh... yet?

[11:42] < Davbo> Ah May Day is "workers day" so i assumed that was your labour day

[11:44] < j_baker> Nope. :)

[11:44] < j_baker> The only holiday we have this month isn't even our own.

[11:44] < j_baker> (although we apparently celebrate it more than Mexico does)

[11:45] < vmlemon_> Well, he has done a bad job of handling the economic slump that Blair gifted the country, and bailed out some building society

[11:45] < j_baker> I'll trade you...

[11:46] < vmlemon_> Oh, and managed to lose a lot of confidential data

[12:00] < vmlemon_> You can have the Millennium Dome and the highly delayed, over-budget Olympics crap, but I'm not sure what the US has for us in it's current state ;)

[12:01] < j_baker> Heh... no, I was talking about trading leaders. :P

[12:02] < vmlemon_> Hmm, a MonkeyBot for a "green" leader? Tough choice

[12:02] < j_baker> :P

[12:06] < j_baker> brb

[12:06] < vmlemon_> Free poorly maintained infrastructure, Newcastle-upon-Tyne and the London Eye are included if you order now! ;)

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[12:17] < j_baker> Check this out... https://luminotes.com/

[12:20] < j_baker> That could be very interesting for my project.

[12:24] < ms-> I don't see what that adds over cerenity

[12:24] < ms-> Which is basically that

[12:24] < ms-> but hey, I tend to create the tools I use

[12:24] < ms-> :)

[12:25] < ms-> "Heh... isn't that a communist holiday?"

[12:25] < ms-> Nope, pagan

[12:25] < Davbo> Haha :P

[12:25] < Davbo> pagan?

[12:25] < Davbo> really?

[12:25] < ms-> IIRC yes

[12:25] < ms-> Originally

[12:26] < ms-> Wikipedia agrees: "The earliest May Day celebrations appeared in pre-Christian Europe, as in the Celtic celebration of Beltane"

[12:26] < Davbo> lol

[12:26] < ms-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Day

[12:27] < ms-> cf also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night

[12:27] < Davbo> interesting

[12:27] < ms-> Well, it's like Christmas and Yuletide

[12:31] < ms-> "invaluable piece of information" - guess that refers to the news item I found :-) Did rather amuse me.

[12:32] *** ms- sees discussion between Trun & Davbo regarding "commitments" vs SVN commits

[12:32] *** ms- notes Davbo was correct

[12:33] < j_baker> ms- now that I look at Luminotes, I don't really see too much that it adds other than some javascript.

[12:34] < j_baker> Plus it looks a little dependency heavy.

[12:35] < j_baker> On the upside, it is already released under an MPL trilicense.

[12:36] < vmlemon_> What language is it written in?

[12:36] < j_baker> python

[12:36] < vmlemon_> Aah

[12:37] < j_baker> Well, I'm going to get ready for work.

[12:37] < j_baker> biab

[12:37] *** j_baker is now known as j_baker-away

[12:37] < vmlemon_> See you

[12:48] *** ms- hadn't noticed it had a download link

[12:48] < ms-> Not MPL - GPL v3

[12:48] < ms-> at least that's what's in luminotes/COPYING

[12:50] < ms-> One file there static/jsunit/app/xbDebug.js - is licensed under the MPL

[12:50] < orphans> hey ms-

[12:51] < ms-> orphans: hiya

[12:51] < orphans> ms-, you got a minute to explain a bit of code which I don't get?

[12:51] < vmlemon_> I take it that it contains no Cerenity code?

[12:52] < ms-> vmlemon_: I'd be really surprised in Luminotes contains any cerenity code

[12:53] < ms-> largely because I haven't pushed cerenity at all (though the CVS server is open)

[12:53] < ms-> orphans: Sure, go ahead

[12:53] < vmlemon_> OK, I was merely curious

[12:54] < orphans> ok, you know in some the pygame stuff it uses waitBox, which is a generator, to wait for when you manage to acquire a display

[12:54] < orphans> (at least I think that's how it works)

[12:54] < ms-> vmlemon_: To be honest though, cerenity is dual licensed under a BSD/GPL license to shut everyone up, so it's something I don't have to worry about

[12:54] < ms-> orphans: go on

[12:55] < orphans> well, I don't really understand why you need the generator and the seperate function - http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/trunk/Sketches/JT/UI/XYBounce.py?revision=3868&view=markup

[12:55] < orphans> is lines 35-41 of that exactly the same?

[12:55] < orphans> or am I missing something?

[12:56] < ms-> You don't need the generator and seperate function.

[12:57] < ms-> It was kinda the first step towards making code more reusable if anything

[12:57] < ms-> there's actually a nicer way now that can be done.

[12:57] < ms-> Not used it in the context of pygame yet

[12:57] < ms-> I don't think

[12:57] < ms-> But used it extensively in Kamaelia Grey

[12:58] < ms-> http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/branches/private_MPS_Scratch/Apps/Kamaelia-Grey/App/greylisting.py?view=markup

[12:58] < ms-> see line 127 : yield WaitComplete(self.getline())

[12:58] < ms-> You could do

[12:58] < ms-> yield WaitComplete( self.getDisplay() )

[12:58] < ms-> and put all the code for getting the display in getDisplay

[12:59] < ms-> It just works around the issue that "yield" can't be wrapped.

[13:00] < ms-> Note that the code getline() in KamaeliaGrey would need to be repeated otherwise

[13:00] < ms-> Or the code restructured

[13:00] < ms-> But to go back, no, you're not missing anything

[13:00] *** ms- goes for breakfast

[13:01] < orphans> ok, yeah - I get it. Cheers ms-

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[13:39] < j_baker> Sigh... so my manager tells me I have a meeting at 8AM.

[13:40] < j_baker> When he *meant* to say 8PM.

[13:40] < ms-> delightful

[13:40] *** ms- is now known as ms-away

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[13:43] < Chong-> Hi all

[13:43] < j_baker> Hello Chong-

[13:44] < Chong-> How's it going, j_baker?

[13:44] < j_baker> Not too bad.

[13:45] < Chong-> Not bad is good:-)

[13:46] < j_baker> Indeed

[13:51] < j_baker> So does anybody have any suggestions on a Linux distro that's a good medium between "easy to use" and "for power users only" to put on my laptop?

[13:51] *** j_baker is a addicted to linux now.

[13:51] < vmlemon_> Fedora 8?

[13:52] < j_baker> Hmmm... I may try that one.

[13:52] < Davbo> or SUSE

[13:52] < j_baker> I was wanting to try something different for SUSE.

[13:52] < Davbo> xfce is nice on laptops

[13:52] < j_baker> *from

[13:52] < vmlemon_> It takes some work to get it to a comfortable state, but it's OK from there

[13:53] < j_baker> It shouldn't be too difficult. VMWare Fusion makes life a lot easier. :)

[13:53] < j_baker> (plus my laptop has an x86 chip)

[14:00] < vmlemon_> You could always try Solaris, FreeBSD or QNX on VMare if you wanted something "completely different"...

[14:01] < vmlemon_> *VMware

[14:01] < j_baker> I have always wanted to use Solaris, but isn't it big?

[14:01] < j_baker> (in terms of hard disk and memory usage)

[14:01] < vmlemon_> It isn't that big

[14:02] < j_baker> I may have to try that out. I forgot about FreeBSD though. I do like BSDs.

[14:02] < Davbo> The early releases had a large footprint, on the Java desktop

[14:03] < vmlemon_> It'll install in 256MB RAM and 3GB+ HDD space, depending on what you choose

[14:03] < j_baker> That's not bad.

[14:03] < j_baker> Didn't java try to make a JavaOS at one point?

[14:03] < j_baker> s/sun/java

[14:03] < Davbo> ms-away: wont like you if you use JDS though ;)

[14:04] < Davbo> You mean Solaris lol?

[14:04] < vmlemon_> There were numerous failed attempts at them

[14:04] < Davbo> SunOS i think

[14:05] < vmlemon_> Try CDE - it's a real timewarp ;)

[14:05] < j_baker> Heh... I actually wish Haiku was stable enough.

[14:05] < j_baker> I've installed it before and it seemed kinda neat.

[14:06] < vmlemon_> Glaring typos preserved since 2005

[14:07] < vmlemon_> (i.e. "Commona Desktop Environment" in the help files and about screen)

[14:07] < j_baker> Wow.

[14:08] < vmlemon_> And a stylish, erm crusty and dated Motif GUI

[14:08] < j_baker> Ergh... Motif GUIs clash with my mac "need for prettiness" side.

[14:08] < j_baker> :P

[14:12] *** vmlemon_ is a big fan of QNX Neutrino, personally - it's small, light, very fast and highly POSIX compatible

[14:12] < j_baker> What exactly is a Real Time Operating System>

[14:14] < vmlemon_> It's an operating system that can predictably perform an operation in a highly time-accurate manner

[14:14] < j_baker> So it's basically a really fast OS?

[14:15] < vmlemon_> Being fast and responsive to the user is a nice side effect

[14:16] < vmlemon_> Although that's it in a nutshell

[14:16] < j_baker> I could definitely see the benefits of that.

[14:18] < vmlemon_> (There's a reason why they use them in nuclear reactors, mobile phones and aircraft control systems)

[14:18] < j_baker> Perhaps it's a good thing they exist. :P

[14:19] < vmlemon_> Windows Vista-powered jet, anyone? ;)

[14:20] < j_baker> Heh...

[14:20] < j_baker> There's an old joke about that.

[14:20] < j_baker> A microsoft exec and a GM exec are talking at a conference of some kind.

[14:21] < j_baker> The microsoft exec says "If GM kept up with technology like we do, we'd be driving cars that get 100 miles to the gallon."

[14:21] < j_baker> The GM exec said "Yeah, but it would crash twice a day."

[14:22] < vmlemon_> Hah

[14:26] < Davbo> back later chaps

[14:26] < j_baker> later Davbo

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[20:50] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: dance

[20:50] Reply: does the macarena

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[22:08] < vmlemon_> Hi Davbo

[22:08] < Davbo> Hey guys

[22:10] < Davbo> I've decided on what i'm buying for my upgrade now :)

[22:12] *** vmlemon_ got L4 and GRUB booting on a USB drive from scratch, earlier, although it doesn't do much...

[22:18] < vmlemon_> And it seems that GRUB has bit the dust on it, now