[00:05] < Chong-> night, all.

[00:05] *** Chong- has parted #kamaelia

[00:05] < j_baker_> Does anyone know the command to edit PYTHONPATH in redhat?

[00:05] Reply: Hm?

[00:24] < j_baker_> Nvm, found it :)

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[00:28] *** j_baker has parted #kamaelia

[00:29] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[00:37] < Davbop> night all

[00:37] < j_baker> night

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[06:48] < vmlemon_> Hi

[07:08] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[07:09] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: dance

[07:09] Reply: does the macarena

[07:34] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[07:34] < Davbo> mornnin' all

[07:42] *** vmlemon has joined #kamaelia

[07:56] *** bcarlyon|nub has joined #kamaelia

[07:58] *** Lawouach_ has joined #kamaelia

[07:58] < Lawouach_> morning

[07:58] < vmlemon> Hi Lawouach_

[07:58] < Lawouach_> hi vmlemon

[08:02] < bcarlyon|nub> mornin

[08:02] *** bcarlyon|nub is now known as bcarlyon|laptop

[08:04] < vmlemon> Hi bcarlyon|laptop

[08:55] < vmlemon> kamaeliabot: boo

[08:55] Reply: Nice try, but that didn't scare me

[09:36] *** orphans has joined #kamaelia

[09:46] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[09:46] < MS-> greetings

[09:51] < orphans> morning MS-

[09:57] < jle> Hewwo.

[10:01] *** vmlemon finds the promo graphic on top of the FSF homepage somewhat interesting/ironic

[10:02] < vmlemon> (Probably since the BSDs were the first OSes to meet that description)

[10:02] < MS-> vmlemon: http://www.fsf.org.uk/ ?

[10:02] < vmlemon> fsf.org

[10:02] < MS-> (being silly)

[10:02] *** MS- looks

[10:03] < vmlemon> They claim that they're "the first" to meet that description

[10:03] < MS-> oh isn't that interesting

[10:03] < vmlemon> From what I can tell, the OpenBSD people also make a similar claim, in a more subtle way

[10:03] < vmlemon> Which is downright puzzling

[10:04] < MS-> Well, if people get antsy about it, just mention sendmail & friends

[10:04] < MS-> (sendmail at least being definitely traceable back to 1980)

[10:04] < MS-> Or so

[10:05] < MS-> Remember they claim that the original BSD license isn't a free software license according to their definitions

[10:06] < MS-> Which according to their dogma are "correct"

[10:06] < MS-> heck, people were still having arguments about "young upstarts" like the FSF trying to usurp the meaning of the phrase "free software" in the late 80s

[10:07] < MS-> (reading around the perl mailing list archives around then is interesting)

[10:12] *** vmlemon has just noticed that he's left his USB drive in the library, connected to the PC he was using :|

[10:13] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[10:15] < MS-> vmlemon: That seems to be a very easy thing to do.

[10:16] < MS-> Probably worth phoning the library and asking them to take it out...

[10:16] < vmlemon> Hah, "Hype free: Probably the only thing you won't get with NetBSD is the media hype. You'll need to get that somewhere else." is listed as a feature on http://www.netbsd.org/about/features.html

[10:16] < Davbo> Mornin' chaps

[10:16] < MS-> heh

[10:16] < MS-> Davbo: morning

[10:16] < vmlemon> Hi Davbo

[10:16] < Davbo> Well I was the only person from my group at that lecture

[10:17] < Davbo> perhaps they'll filter in lol :)

[10:19] *** Lawouach has joined #kamaelia

[10:19] < Lawouach> back

[10:25] < Lawouach> orphans: are you there?

[10:26] < orphans> Lawouach, yeah

[10:26] < orphans> hows you?

[10:26] < Lawouach> I'm good :)

[10:27] < Lawouach> I wanted to ask you whether or not you'd like to have the dedicated mentor time on the Monday evening rather than any other day?

[10:27] Reply: Hi, I'm a bot. I've been put here to answer faq's and log the channel. You can find the logs at http://yeoldeclue.com/logs/ Please don't ask 'any mentors here' since I'm logging for them. Yes, there is. If you just ask you question

[10:27] Reply: or post your idea, you may get a response - either from a mentor or fellow student or from someone reading the logs.

[10:27] Reply: Regarding applications we will be discussing applications (and maybe asking for improvements) until April 7th or 8th - remember no news may well be good news

[10:27] Reply: Some useful links/tips - use the template : http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/SummerOfCode2006Template - base page: http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/SummerOfCode

[10:27] Reply: Tips for a good application - q's to ask yourself: http://yeoldeclue.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.cgi?rm=viewpost&nodeid=1206709783

[10:27] < Lawouach> I find that Monday's are quieter and better for me

[10:27] < Lawouach> Wanted to ask about your timetable

[10:27] < Lawouach> kamaeliabot: shut up :)

[10:27] *** orphans checks

[10:28] < orphans> yeah, Monday evening is fine by me

[10:29] < orphans> what sort of time?

[10:29] < Lawouach> sure? well that's cool then

[10:29] < Lawouach> Well say about 8pm GMT

[10:29] < Lawouach> not before 7pm GMT but could be later if you will

[10:30] < Lawouach> 8pm seems rather good

[10:30] < orphans> nah, 8pm gmt is cool by me - gives me time to have diner before and go to the pub after :)

[10:30] < Lawouach> yeap :)

[10:30] < Lawouach> alright

[10:30] < Lawouach> we shall have a meeting this week nonetheless

[10:30] < Lawouach> won't happen before Thursday though

[10:31] < Lawouach> It'll be more about getting things started

[10:32] < orphans> k, cool. Thursday is maybe a little sketchy for me this week (report in on Friday), but other than that I'm free

[10:32] < orphans> tbh hopefully I'll have my report done by the end of tomorrow, but I have been saying that for about three weeks now :)

[10:34] < Lawouach> Friday is cool

[10:35] < Lawouach> even this weekend is just fine

[10:35] < Lawouach> Don't worry too much

[10:36] < orphans> k, awesome

[10:49] < vmlemon> Hmm, http://openid.net/2008/04/22/british-broadcasting-corp-bbc-joins-openid-foundation/

[10:51] < Lawouach> That's good news although I assume they will too only be consumer not OpenID provider.

[10:52] < vmlemon> Hah, http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/msg08529.html

[11:39] < vmlemon> Odd, http://www.inkblotpassword.com/

[11:47] < MS-> Lawouach: Personally I'd hope the BBC was only a consumer really (generally)

[11:47] < MS-> except for bbc staff

[11:47] < MS-> (it'd be useful to have a BBC openid - as well as my bbc email for example)

[11:48] < MS-> Much like Sun provide openids for their staff

[11:49] < Lawouach_> back

[11:49] < Lawouach_> I see

[11:49] < Lawouach_> that makes sense

[11:50] < Lawouach_> but it could also be like Google email address where Google employes have @google.com and Google users have @gmail.com

[11:50] < MS-> indeed

[11:50] < MS-> It would be interesting to see how many people would want to identify themselves that way

[11:52] < Lawouach_> Mind you I seldom use my OpenId myself

[11:52] < vmlemon> One thing I find interesting, is that the @google.com and @yahoo.com addresses were always open to abuse (e.g. people could sign up and pose as an official member of the company, or as the customer service department by virtue of having an @companyname.com address)

[11:53] < vmlemon> Although @google.com has never been offered to the pulbic

[11:53] < vmlemon> *public

[11:53] < vmlemon> even

[11:55] < MS-> Lawouach_: I think I'd use it more if I could be bothered :)

[11:55] < Lawouach_> Hear hear

[11:55] < MS-> or if I had to

[11:55] < MS-> :)

[11:55] < Lawouach_> I don't blog or comment enough to use it

[11:55] < MS-> I like the idea of it though

[11:55] < Lawouach_> But like most things I'm not usually the consumers of the tools I fashion. Meaning although I'm a developer I don't actually use the Internet that much :)

[11:56] < MS-> But I don't (for example) want to tie blog comments to (say) my AOL IM id

[11:56] < MS-> even though I could

[11:56] *** vmlemon prefers to use a single username and password for almost everything 'net-related (barring e-mail)

[12:03] *** Lawouach_ was so happy when he whois'ed defuze.org only to discover it was available :)

[12:03] < Lawouach_> Finding a good domain name these days is quite a challenge

[12:03] < Davbo> I'm happy with mine :)

[12:04] < Davbo> I've got a few though

[12:09] < Lawouach_> I'm listening to an album that I find particularly fresh and enjoyable:

[12:09] < Lawouach_> Richard Swift - Dressed up for the let down

[12:09] < Lawouach_> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dressed-Let-Down-Richard-Swift/dp/B000MV9NLE

[12:09] < Lawouach_> If you've got 10 quid to spare and want to try something else... :)

[12:28] < Davbo> Still no more of my group shown up

[12:28] *** Davbo sighs

[12:29] < Davbo> Sounds good Lawouach_. Will have a look when i get home

[12:30] < Lawouach_> Cool. Lyrics are quite tasteful :)

[12:36] < Davbo> Although I have the new GTA waiting to be played when i get home :P

[12:37] < Davbo> Might not make it online tonight hehe :)

[12:37] < Lawouach_> eh eh

[12:37] < Lawouach_> tough choice

[12:38] < Davbo> The real tough choice is Maths lecture or GTA! lol

[12:39] < Davbo> one of my friends here has it and we just looked at the map that it comes with, it looks amazing :-)

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[12:54] < Davbo> Yay someone from my group showed up

[13:15] < MS-> woo

[13:16] < Davbo> Oh that guy which showed up has gone

[13:16] < Davbo> he dropped the folder off with the other group work and just left

[13:16] < Davbo> lol

[13:17] < MS-> hm

[13:18] *** MS- refrains from commenting

[13:19] < Lawouach_> Interesting email from Istvan on the list

[13:19] < Lawouach_> He used to be through Heahem

[13:19] < Lawouach_> damn ssh!

[13:20] < Lawouach_> so I was saying, he used to be thorough on the CherryPy list as well

[13:20] < Lawouach_> He can be rough but usually makes great comments

[13:20] < Lawouach_> For instance I agree with him on this one. I'd say Kamaelia might need a heavy package refactoring some day :)

[13:21] < MS-> Indeed, it's a useful comment.

[13:21] < MS-> I've been tempted for sometime to think about flattening things down so you can do that.

[13:22] < MS-> But the question is really "how do you do that without importing everything"

[13:22] < MS-> So I'll ask that on the list and get suggestions :)

[13:22] < Lawouach_> The many import statements don't bother as much as their organisation

[13:24] < MS-> The fact it's hierarchical, or the where things are in the hierarchy?

[13:25] < MS-> I'll pause before replying on the list

[13:25] < MS-> (though my reaction is very much oooh, criticism, useful :-) )

[13:30] < Lawouach_> sorry

[13:30] < Lawouach_> i was responding to the list

[13:30] < Lawouach_> I'll let you red it and tell me if I'm clearer

[13:30] < MS-> k

[13:31] < MS-> heh, yes

[13:31] < MS-> Putting it bluntly "the naming of some of the things sucks"

[13:32] < MS-> "but 'not being flat' and 'lots of imports' aren't really major issues"

[13:33] < Lawouach_> That's certainly true

[13:33] < orphans> mm, it's all interesting - mind if I chuck my (having spent a couple of days only newbie) 2c out on the list

[13:33] < MS-> of course

[13:34] < MS-> that's the core of why I like being in gsoc

[13:34] < MS-> (fresh sets of eyes)

[13:34] < orphans> :)

[13:35] < MS-> After all, I say in every talk that if stuff isn't clear or simple enough (perhaps no simpler...) to pick up then its a bug

[13:35] < MS-> And I mean it when I say it

[13:36] < MS-> All that said, I've often liked the idea of having an equivalent of /bin, /usr/bin etc

[13:36] < MS-> If I say much else here it won't make it to the list

[13:38] < Davbo> Interesting post on the list

[13:39] < MS-> Davbo: You've got a fresh set of eyes at present, and it'd be useful to hear you thoughts on the list as well

[13:39] < MS-> My general feeling with anything like this though is for every 1 person who says this, they are not unique, but they might be unique in saying something about it

[13:39] < Davbo> In regards to the Accessibility discussion?

[13:40] < MS-> yep

[13:40] < MS-> :)

[13:40] < Davbo> I'll certainly make a reply

[13:40] < Davbo> perhaps as a blog too because I do have things to say about that

[13:41] < Davbo> it's a big problem for OSS in general

[13:41] < Davbo> but Kamaelia is especially easy imo (for the most part)

[13:42] < Davbo> Will post later on :)

[13:42] < MS-> ta

[13:42] < MS-> depends though - for gsoc we actually really try to say "this is the route in"

[13:43] < MS-> I'm actually quite pleased to see that mail though

[13:45] < Davbo> Yeah, indeed.

[13:49] < Davbo> I agree with lawouach on the lines of imports - It's like using a menu on linux and going "Hmm where will I find a TCP component" (not sure where it actually is) Kamaelia.network.protocols. blah

[13:49] < Davbo> I'll put my thoughts into a coherent order and post it to the ML later

[13:50] < Davbo> Maths lecture now, back later.

[13:50] < Davbo> (nobody else in the group showed up lol)

[13:50] < Davbo> Back later

[13:55] *** MS- wonders how /Components doesn't resolve that

[13:56] < MS-> but then I would wonder :-)

[13:57] < MS-> http://elitistjerks.com/customavatars/avatar1404_5.gif

[13:59] < Lawouach_> lo

[13:59] < Lawouach_> lol

[14:01] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[14:02] < vmlemon_> Hi

[14:02] < MS-> hi

[14:06] < orphans> reply sent

[14:07] *** orphans wonders how much of it is a silly idea :)

[14:11] < MS-> It's useful.

[14:11] < MS-> It again boils down to the age old problem "naming is hard"

[14:13] < MS-> Simple* components are a bit like Tesco Value products really

[14:13] < MS-> after all Tesco products should be good value

[14:13] < MS-> but they may be missing something

[14:14] < vmlemon_> Tesco Value Whiteboard? ;)

[14:14] < Lawouach_> Asda powa

[14:14] < MS-> heh

[14:14] < vmlemon_> Yay for Safeway

[14:14] < orphans> :)

[14:15] < Lawouach_> :)

[14:15] < Lawouach_> Nothing beats M&S though

[14:16] < vmlemon_> Lawouach_: Is that with Batteries Included?

[14:16] < Lawouach_> anyway orphans thoughts from a beginner on a project always shed a light at where you may have missed something

[14:16] < MS-> indeed

[14:16] < Lawouach_> I used to ask tons of undirect questions to MS- at first

[14:16] < vmlemon_> Anyone been to Waitrose?

[14:16] < Lawouach_> So your views (I mean all the students here) are indeed useful

[14:17] < Lawouach_> vmlemon_: Isn't it for grandmas' ?

[14:17] < vmlemon_> I've never been

[14:18] < orphans> cool - as MS- says, a lot of it does come down to naming and that is hard

[14:18] < orphans> especially with Kamaelia which has a pretty big wide ranging set of components

[14:22] < vmlemon_> Lidl Value? ;)

[14:22] < vmlemon_> "Cheaper than Lidl"

[14:34] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: dance

[14:34] Reply: does the macarena

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[15:34] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[15:34] < j_baker> Hello guys

[15:39] < j_baker> brb

[15:39] *** j_baker has parted #kamaelia

[15:56] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[15:57] < j_baker> Is it just me or does Sourceforge seem SLOW to anyone else?

[15:58] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[16:05] < Lawouach_> j_baker: SF is slow.

[16:42] < Lawouach> back

[16:44] < j_baker> Hey Lawouach, MS- mentioned something about you having an XMPP project that might be useful for my project.

[16:44] < j_baker> Any idea specifically which project he was talking about?

[16:45] < j_baker> Was it amplee (that you mention on your blog)?

[16:46] < Lawouach> amplee would be a complementary one ;)

[16:46] < Lawouach> the project MS talked about was headstock

[16:46] < Lawouach> but I'm afraid it's not documented at all

[16:46] < j_baker> What exactly does headstock do?

[16:47] < Lawouach> It implements the core of XMPP and a few extensions using Kamaelia

[16:48] < j_baker> Ah, so it's simply an interface for XMPP implemented in Kamaelia?

[16:48] < Lawouach> yes

[16:49] < j_baker> I understand that XMPP is used for IM, but I don't know much more about it. How would it specifically be useful for my project?

[16:49] < Lawouach> It is mainly known and used for IM

[16:49] < Lawouach> However it's more than that

[16:50] < Lawouach> It has powerful extensions that go way beyond IM

[16:50] < Lawouach> Like PubSub

[16:50] < Lawouach> allowing for a publish/subscribe mechanism of data

[16:50] < j_baker> Like RSS?

[16:50] < Lawouach> Yes and now

[16:51] < Lawouach> Yes in the fact you can subscribe to a resource and be updated about it

[16:51] < Lawouach> No because with RSS, at least over HTTP, you have to poll

[16:51] < Lawouach> whereas XMPP allows for push events :)

[16:52] < j_baker> Ah, I see. So then it could be possible for you even use XMPP as a sort of an AJAX replacement

[16:53] < j_baker> But the model of doing things DOES seem a lot like the peer/intermediary setup I had in my proposal now that I read more about it.

[16:54] < Lawouach> indeed

[16:54] < Lawouach> That was the idea ;)

[16:54] < Lawouach> You could update peers automatically without having to wait for them to poll

[16:56] < j_baker> Is there any place that you know about where I could get a little more in depth info about how XMPP works?

[16:56] < Lawouach> hmm

[16:56] < Lawouach> Usually the spec

[16:58] < Lawouach> I will upload some code later today if I can

[17:02] < j_baker> That would be awesome. One other question. MS also brought up the possibility of swarming. Are there any extensions in XMPP to help with that?

[17:03] < j_baker> I know that we could use pubsub to be able to have peers that already have the data...

[17:05] < Lawouach> I'm not sure

[17:05] < j_baker> So I suppose what I'm looking for is an XMPP version of BitTorrent. Or can that be achieved using a gateway?

[17:05] < Lawouach> You could do something interesting there for sure

[17:09] < vmlemon_> Yay, I finally got MIDI working

[17:11] < vmlemon_> At least partially

[17:16] < j_baker> Congrats.

[17:16] < j_baker> Anyway, got to go to class. Later guys.

[17:16] *** j_baker has parted #kamaelia

[17:21] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[17:21] < MS-> evening

[17:29] < MS-> Found the example in the cookbook which Istvan was referring to

[17:29] < MS-> It's this example: http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/Cookbook/Pipelines.html

[17:29] < MS-> And the leading underscores are indeed a pity

[17:59] *** MS- gets food

[17:59] *** MS- is now known as ms-away

[18:02] *** Chong- has joined #kamaelia

[18:02] < Chong-> Evening, all.

[18:52] *** ms-away is now known as MS-

[18:52] < MS-> Chong-: evening

[19:08] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[19:08] < MS-> evening Davbo

[19:09] < Davbo> Hello

[19:12] < Chong-> hi, MS- and Davbo.

[19:12] < Chong-> Man united 1:0 Barce :-)

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[19:18] < Lawouach> orphans: have you got an idea of the libs I will have to install on my machine to run your code?

[19:21] < orphans> Lawouach, the stuff I've stuck in svn?

[19:21] < Lawouach> ah well see

[19:21] < Lawouach> I hadn't checked there

[19:21] < orphans> there's not much there - just the midi and osc tests I did

[19:22] < orphans> you want the links for the libs for them

[19:23] < Lawouach> weird I can't seem to get anything from your Sketches directory

[19:23] < Lawouach> hang on

[19:23] < Lawouach> nevermind

[19:23] < Lawouach> my fault

[19:24] < Lawouach> alright, I would appreciate a README and INSTALL in there explaining how to run your code

[19:24] < Lawouach> what libs need to be installed

[19:24] < Lawouach> where to get them etc :)

[19:24] < Lawouach> nothing too fancy

[19:24] < Lawouach> :)

[19:24] < Lawouach> and not right now either

[19:25] < Lawouach> finish your reports and lets see that for this weekend :)

[19:25] < orphans> sure, np

[19:25] < Lawouach> ta

[19:27] < orphans> Lawouach, what distro are you running?

[19:27] < orphans> (some of it might be packaged)

[19:28] < Lawouach> ubuntu

[19:28] < orphans> :) or not

[19:28] < Lawouach> ubuntustudio actually

[19:29] < orphans> k, there's not too much to install really, just two things which (afaik) don't have .debs

[19:33] < Lawouach> orphans: that's okay with me but what I'm trying to tell you is that you should see my questions as a "next guy who wants to try your package"

[19:33] < Lawouach> :)

[19:34] < orphans> yup :)

[19:34] < Davbo> there has to be a joke in "next guy who wants to try your package"

[19:34] < Davbo> However, I shall refrain.

[19:35] < orphans> :D

[19:35] < orphans> I'm sure theres some extra humour to be derived from an external dependencies joke, but I shall also refrain

[19:36] < Lawouach> ouch

[19:36] < Lawouach> Yeah no pun was intended

[19:36] < Lawouach> :)

[19:44] < MS-> orphans: Writing those docs Lawouach actually relates to not incurring (project) management debt: http://yeoldeclue.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.cgi?rm=viewpost&nodeid=1163178332

[19:44] *** MS- is sure his english is slowly getting worse

[19:46] < Lawouach> :)

[19:46] < Lawouach> I think I want students to see their project as a standalone project even though it will probably reside within Kamaelia itself

[19:49] < orphans> ahh, yeah. definitely one of those things which I would forget without a bit of prompting :)

[19:49] < MS-> Lawouach: Yes, indeed.

[19:50] < MS-> My expectation is that these projects will largely sit in the "Apps" part of the tree which I'm currently fleshing out

[19:50] < Lawouach> great :)

[19:50] < MS-> Currently mainly on my branch, but to be merged onto trunk

[19:50] < MS-> https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/branches/private_MPS_Scratch/Apps

[19:50] < MS-> (Merged before needed of course :) )

[19:51] < Lawouach> Now I'm curious as to the rationnal behind that layout?

[19:51] < Lawouach> Why not using setuptools for instance?

[19:52] < Lawouach> Not that I'm crazy about it but it has become standard

[19:52] < MS-> Probably the useful example there really is the Logger's one

[19:53] < MS-> https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/branches/private_MPS_Scratch/Apps/Kamaelia-Logger/DistBuild/Logger.build.sh

[19:53] < MS-> Is used to build the setup.py file

[19:53] < MS-> and also to yank across copies of Axon & Kamaelia

[19:54] < MS-> Allowing these apps to be installed in a single shot

[19:54] < Lawouach> I see

[19:54] < MS-> Ideally it should make 2 versions

[19:54] < MS-> one with the 2 core dependencies

[19:54] < MS-> and one without

[19:55] < MS-> But I think this approach (which I'm really still toying with)

[19:55] < MS-> is alot better than the (say) megabundle approach

[19:55] < MS-> Whilst still having the benefit of "we know this works"

[19:56] < Lawouach> Interesting

[19:56] < Lawouach> I'll be looking at how this pans out

[19:57] < MS-> Where it comes from is that when I built Kamaelia Grey, last year I also gave a talk on it

[19:57] < MS-> and realised "hmm, I don't have an easy way of just saying 'download this one thing and install/run that'"

[19:57] *** bcarlyon|nub has joined #kamaelia

[19:58] < MS-> So I manually created a bundle like that, and put it up for the curious

[19:58] < MS-> SOmeone who came along to the talk grabbed it and installed and liked the install mechanism

[19:59] < MS-> and a few months later I bumped into them and they said it was still working fine - very much in a unpack-install-configure-use/forget/enjoy-benefits kind of way

[20:00] *** Davbo agrees

[20:00] < Davbo> the ones you linked from that email to the SoC students is far easier to work with

[20:01] < Davbo> Kamaelia-Modeller i think

[20:02] < orphans> heh, I just yanked it from svn. Unpretty but it worked...

[20:03] *** bcarlyon|nub is now known as bcarlyon|laptop

[20:03] < MS-> I prefer working from svn as well.

[20:03] < MS-> But it sucks as a packaging mechanism really :)

[20:03] < orphans> yeah :)

[20:04] *** MS- watching BSG

[20:04] *** MS- is now known as ms-away

[20:14] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[20:22] < orphans> off to the pub, bye all

[20:22] < j_baker> later

[20:44] < j_baker> Heh... just found something interesting. There's a link on the sourceforge wiki to a page called "Visions of Kamaelia".

[20:44] < j_baker> When you click on it, it gives you an empty page. :)

[20:45] < Davbo> Yeah, it's the visions of Kamaelia from the perspective of a blind person.

[20:49] < Davbo> where is it j_baker

[20:49] < Davbo> can't find it

[20:49] < Davbo> ironically

[20:50] < j_baker> http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/Developers/Direction

[20:50] < j_baker> At the very bottom

[20:52] < Davbo> I see

[20:52] < Davbo> weird

[20:56] < Davbo> Hahah, someone posted on the students mailing list "if you think about it, that open source has achieved an

[20:56] < Davbo> implementation of communism that works"

[20:57] < Davbo> Someone needs to read some Marx imo.

[20:59] < j_baker> I think that the open source ideology is very marxist.

[21:00] < j_baker> What is open source software but software without property rights?

[21:00] < j_baker> (granted it doesn't always really work that way)

[21:00] < j_baker> < -- former sociology major

[21:01] < Davbo> It's easy to say Open source relates to Marxism imo

[21:02] < Davbo> perhaps in execution you can see similarities

[21:02] < Davbo> I'd argue the philosophy behind them is very different

[21:03] < j_baker> How so?

[21:04] < Davbo> The collaborative process of programming open source software doesn't directly relate to the general idea of communism

[21:04] < Davbo> you can easily make money from it for example

[21:05] < j_baker> True, I would argue that this is a product of the capitalist society we live in more than the model of development though.

[21:07] < Davbo> Hmm I'd have to disagree

[21:08] < Davbo> Look at the organisations in the open source world, people get the right to commit - hardly a marxist approach

[21:09] < Davbo> Ultimately what happens with Kamaelia is up to the project managers

[21:10] < j_baker> This is very true.

[21:11] < j_baker> And I suppose that's an example of how Marxism works very well in theory, but is a tad utopian. (not that I'm anti-socialism or anything)

[21:11] < j_baker> I don't think that pure democracy is a very good model for software development.

[21:11] < Davbo> it's certainly a good thing we don't have classless software development hehe

[21:12] < Davbo> imagine the lunatics commiting firefox to being called "DavFox"

[21:12] < Davbo> not that i'd ever do such a thing ;)

[21:13] < Davbo> that's why we worship our benevolent dictator, ms-away lol ;)

[21:14] < j_baker> Or imagine the feature bloat that you would end up with.

[21:21] *** ms-away is now known as ms-

[21:22] *** Davbo notices he mixed up Compose and Modeller on his post to the mailing list

[21:22] < Davbo> oops

[21:23] < j_baker> ms- I'm going to send you a response to your email. Do you want me to send it to the cerenity email address?

[21:23] < Davbo> it's an interesting thought wouldn't you agree j_baker - the communist remark

[21:24] < j_baker> Indeed Davbo. It seems to me that it also suffers from the same problems as Marxism.

[21:25] < j_baker> Sometimes FOSS is just too idealistic.

[21:25] < ms-> j_baker: You mean the "stuff you may want to know about or ignore, but sent in case useful" mail ?

[21:25] < ms-> :)

[21:25] < j_baker> yes

[21:25] < ms-> cerenity is fine

[21:26] *** ms- should probably remove that "Visions of" link

[21:26] < ms-> And probably do a mindwipe Direction page.

[21:27] < ms-> And also re-enable the wiki in a way that means it doesn't get spammed to death

[21:27] < ms-> so that others can put what they think there

[21:27] < ms-> Hm, I know precisely what I meant (and others did) when I put that "mission" up there (never particularly like that crap, but some people like that sort of thing)

[21:28] < ms-> but it's a really crap way of phrasing things

[21:28] < ms-> Probably due to IKEA withdrawal symptoms at the time

[21:28] < Davbo> it's important though ms-

[21:29] < Davbo> people don't give much time to browsing and like to read short things like that

[21:29] < Davbo> I know i have a habit of reading them

[21:29] < ms-> Indeed.

[21:30] < ms-> The description on the facebook group is perhaps closer, but still slightly hackneyed

[21:30] < ms-> "Kamaelia is an open source project that has as it's less than obvious goal creating the computer systems that you'd find on next gen version of the USS Enterprise, just not waiting 4 centuries for it."

[21:30] < Davbo> facebook group ? :/

[21:30] < Davbo> wow i should really hit that up ;P

[21:30] < ms-> heh

[21:31] < ms-> < excuse> Well, lots of other projects have them < /excuse>

[21:31] < Davbo> lol :)

[21:32] < ms-> I find it relatively amusing that the largest group I know of on facebook is the "When I was your age, Pluto was a planet."

[21:32] < ms-> group

[21:32] < ms-> "1,275,445 members"

[21:33] < Davbo> lol

[21:33] < j_baker> Didn't it just lose planet status less than a year ago?

[21:33] < ms-> Yep

[21:35] < Davbo> ms-: can i be your friend please so I can "super poke" you

[21:35] < Davbo> ;)

[21:35] < ms-> I think I've blocked that application

[21:35] < Davbo> I have "last.fm" installed and an application that lets me play "Go" against my friends :)

[21:36] < j_baker> I haven't logged onto my facebook account in ages.

[21:36] < Davbo> and many many many requests for rubbish like super poke and vampires, I never use it

[21:36] < Davbo> strangely the most i've used it is playing Go against a friend

[21:37] < ms-> I was using it alot more a year ago than now. Now some people seem to just use the messages thing as a way of having spam free way of having something like email

[21:39] < Davbo> Yeah

[21:41] < j_baker> Ok, this is just too awesome.

[21:41] < j_baker> http://www.symantec.com/enterprise/security_response/weblog/2008/04/copyright_violations_in_the_un.html

[21:42] < j_baker> Apparently, there's malware with EULAs now.

[21:42] < ms-> That was on the reg yesterday

[21:42] < ms-> Madness

[21:43] < ms-> "You people, yes, you people who have no problem with doing lots of bad stuff, don't do bad stuff with our stuff or we're going to the teacher"

[21:43] < ms-> "oooh, I'm scared"

[21:45] < Davbo> lol

[21:52] < Davbo> Strange how many arguments in the tech industry can be satirised in that format :P

[21:54] < j_baker> Speaking of tech industry arguments... http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6330927813/m/903008091931/p/1

[21:55] < j_baker> I find that one particularly entertaining.

[21:56] < j_baker> My argument was that all programming languages suck. Some just suck less than others.

[21:56] < j_baker> And someone said something along the lines of "Oh yeah, well why don't you just go write binary code then?"

[21:57] < j_baker> head -> desk

[21:59] *** Davbo doesn't take part in arguments on forums for this reason

[21:59] < j_baker> I know, but for me it's like driving by a car wreck. You always try not to stare, but morbid curiosity gets the best of you every time.

[22:00] < Davbo> lol

[22:00] < Davbo> interesting lol :)

[22:02] < Davbo> Ah, my turn to play GTA4. Me and my brother are taking shifts.

[22:02] < Davbo> Cya later chaps.

[22:02] < j_baker> later

[22:03] < ms-> Wow, that troll got lots of replies there

[22:04] < ms-> If languages were perfect, people wouldn't feel the need to improve them or create new ones

[22:05] < j_baker> Its another reason I like reading forums. There's always somebody there to make me feel smart. :P

[22:06] < ms-> My initial reaction is suprise with the name, but I like it

[22:10] < ms-> Do you mind it I take your reply (sans the bit of my email quoted at the bottom) and take my reply to the google group?

[22:10] < j_baker> I don't see why not.

[22:10] < ms-> Probably filling in some context before your numbered points?

[22:10] < ms-> Cool

[22:11] < ms-> "why not" - It's just I view it as impolite for me not to ask first :)

[22:12] < ms-> I'll follow up on the points there

[22:12] < j_baker> That's understandable.

[22:13] < ms-> Regarding the projects, the a key evaluation criterion of the projects themselves was "ignoring the project, what is likely to drop out of this that will be useful?"

[22:13] < ms-> For me, someone taking the (probably small) amount of time to finish off existing the WSGI implementation (which will host some WSGI apps) was the key one

[22:14] < ms-> But you've got q's there, which I'll answer on the list (basically the why I view that as useful/important)

[22:14] < ms-> I don't have any issue with 2)

[22:15] < ms-> Indeed, you'd find also a much greater audience for a kamaelia based CMS if it could sit on WSGI as well

[22:15] < ms-> (nb, lots of people have different definitions of a CMS)

[22:16] < ms-> I don't have any immediate thoughts about 3)

[22:18] < ms-> It's interesting btw, your questions here mirror some other ones I've been having with something completely different with someone else at work

[22:18] < ms-> (the "at work" is actually with someone in a different org)

[22:27] < j_baker> That's fine. As for #1, I don't really have any problem with doing it if it's a big deal.

[22:28] < ms-> It shouldn't be a huge amount of effort given the pre-existing code that's there (maybe some time tracing through it I admit - it builds on Ryan's code from 2 summers back and my small extensions to it last year)

[22:28] < ms-> But there are IMO large payoffs in doing so

[22:30] < ms-> However, even if you didn't do that, given your suggestion of 2), making that WSGI-hostable (which doesn't preclude a kamaelia approach IMO), actually opens up lots of options to you. (Since it widens the base of users significantly in places you wouldn't expect)

[22:30] < ms-> But the combination also would make a difference

[22:31] < ms-> The reason for suggesting moving to the mailing list is in case others have opinions you find useful.

[22:36] < j_baker> Other sets of eyes are always useful. Plus it may help others out if they run into any similar situations to mine.

[22:39] < j_baker> How do you typically add a directory to PYTHONPATH in Linux?

[22:39] < j_baker> I've figure out how to change the environment variable, but it keeps getting changed back.

[22:42] < ms-> If you want to make the change to your environment permanent

[22:43] < ms-> you want to edit your .bashrc file

[22:43] < j_baker> is that in my home directory?

[22:43] < ms-> yep

[22:43] < ms-> eg my .bashrc for most machines looks like this:

[22:43] < ms-> (or rather is extended to have this: )

[22:43] < ms-> export PS1="\n\w> "

[22:43] < ms-> LS_OPTIONS="$LS_OPTIONS -X -p"

[22:45] < ms-> If you want to make it a system wide change, it's likely that you have a /etc/bash.bashrc which will reference something it will recommend you edit

[22:45] < ms-> eg /etc/bash.bashrc.local

[22:45] < ms-> (by system wide, I mean for all users)

[22:48] < j_baker> Well, it's for my webspace.

[22:48] < j_baker> I seem to be having problems getting moinmoin to work. :s

[22:49] < ms-> Oh, so you mean at startup of the web app?

[22:49] < ms-> Rather than when you run as a user?

[22:50] < ms-> Did you know you can do this:

[22:50] < ms-> import sys

[22:50] < ms-> sys.path.append("/some/path")

[22:50] < ms-> which you could add at the beginning of the scripts...

[22:50] < ms-> which could be a workaround (knowing nothing about your hosting)

[22:52] < j_baker> Hmmm... I suppose that is an option. (I'm using webfaction at the moment)

[22:54] < ms-> http://wiki.webfaction.com/wiki/InstallScripts

[22:55] < ms-> looks useful maybe

[22:57] < j_baker> May have to try that one out.

[22:59] < j_baker> Sigh, the only thing that I like about PHP is that it's so much easier just to drop the files in the directory, set up the database and you're done.

[23:00] < ms-> Yep. Also makes it *real* easy for sites to be zombied for phishing scams

[23:01] < j_baker> Really?

[23:01] < ms-> Many phishing sites take advantage of that "easy install" feature* of php

[23:01] < ms-> Yep

[23:01] < ms-> Find a way to get a file uploaded onto the server that's served by the server and you're away

[23:02] < ms-> It's incredibly easy to accidentally enable, and incredibly easy to then take advantage of

[23:02] < ms-> If I wasn't using a greylisting server I'd point you at an example :)

[23:09] *** ms- calls it a night

[23:09] *** ms- is now known as ms-away

[23:09] < ms-away> night

[23:09] < j_baker> night