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[00:58] < Davbo> hm MS-?

[01:20] < MS-> ?

[01:20] < MS-> OK, on this note:

[01:20] < MS-> https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/trunk/Sketches/MPS/Web

[01:20] < MS-> I'm off to bed.

[01:21] < MS-> night

[01:21] *** MS- is now known as ms-away

[01:33] < Davbo> g'night :)

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[06:52] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: dance

[06:52] Reply: does the macarena

[06:54] < vmlemon_> Hi

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[06:56] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: ecky

[06:56] Reply: Ptang!

[06:56] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: paw

[06:57] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: boo

[06:57] Reply: Nice try, but that didn't scare me

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[07:12] < Lawouach_> heya

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[07:28] < vmlemon_> Anyone have the URL for the old (non-whizzy, non-shiny and catless) lists?

[07:32] < ms-away> http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/mailinglists

[07:34] < vmlemon_> Thanks

[07:37] < ms-away> (morning btw)

[07:37] < ms-away> (only briefly around and noticed this)

[07:37] < ms-away> (back in around an hour and a bit)

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[09:15] < vmlemon> Hi

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[09:32] < MS-> greetings

[09:37] < vmlemon> Hi MS-

[09:38] < vmlemon> Ugh, I hope that the new list doesn't get as bad as what I've seen of the old one, spam-wise

[09:38] < MS-> It shouldn't do

[09:38] < MS-> On the old list I didn't want to make the list "subscriber only" because that can be a barrier. With google groups that sort of thing is far less of a barrier, due to the massively better web interface

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[09:45] < Chong-> Morning, all.

[09:46] < vmlemon> Hi Chong-

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[09:46] < Chong-> morning, vmlemon.

[09:47] < MS-> morning

[09:47] < Chong-> hi, MS-

[09:47] < Chong-> MS-: will you go to Richard Stallman's talk?

[09:48] < MS-> 686 emails to work address over the weekend. 5 of them aren't spam. (not all of those are interesting). Only 42 caught by the beeb's spam system

[09:48] < MS-> Chong-: Dunno. Maybe.

[09:48] < MS-> not jumping up and down excited by the idea

[09:48] < orphans> morning all

[09:49] < Chong-> But I'd like to see how he will answer your questions:-)

[09:49] < Chong-> hi, orphans.

[09:49] < MS-> Chong-: See http://yeoldeclue.com/logs/kamaelia2008-04-25_log.html ~ 19:00 or so

[09:51] < Chong-> I have seen the log so I know your questions are very interesting.:-)

[09:55] < MS-> I see

[09:56] < MS-> thing is, I'm pretty certain what his answers would be, and in that environment they'd potentially sound like a public statement

[09:56] < MS-> rather than genuine questions

[09:57] < MS-> After all, whilst he's not required to have evidence for his philosophy (which it is - esp given the section these things are filed in on his* sites), it would be interesting if he did

[09:58] < MS-> Also, the reason I picked stoic philosophy is because he'd be bound to know about it and also know that it's a pretty good basis (philosophy wise) for the BSD viewpoint

[10:03] < Chong-> I see. People tend to say shining things in public occasions.

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[10:36] < Lawouach> lunch time

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[10:48] < Davbo> hi all

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[11:08] < Chong-> Hi, Davbo.

[11:08] < Chong-> yes, i'm for manchester university.

[11:09] < Chong-> But to be honest, I have not noticed the talk until seeing your conversation :-)

[11:09] < Davbo> hmm? Which talk?

[11:10] < Lawouach> http://flickr.com/photos/lawouach/ < -- some new photographs from this weekend

[11:11] < Chong-> Richard Stallman's

[11:12] < Chong-> Lawouach: nice shot :-)

[11:12] < Lawouach> ta

[11:13] < Davbo> oh Chong-, completely forgot about it. Yeah someone in my department emailed us all about it - I'm not going

[11:13] < Davbo> Might be interesting though

[11:14] < Davbo> Lawouach, interesting: http://flickr.com/photos/lawouach/2448914348/ lol

[11:14] < Chong-> yes. He seems a fun guy

[11:16] < Lawouach> There was a political statement right there :)

[11:16] < Lawouach> Can't quite remember which one however

[11:16] < Davbo> Hehe :)

[11:16] < Lawouach> anyway back to work

[11:16] < Chong-> see you later, Lawouach.

[11:17] < Chong-> Davbo: I was wondering why you have given up ubuntu :-)

[11:20] < Davbo> Had some problems with Compiz and Pygame not working so well together, going to look into that further. But I much prefer some of the things on KDE so was thinking about switching. Kubuntu crashed (well Adept did) about 3 times in the short amount of time i was using it, awful UI too.

[11:22] < Chong-> I see. How do you like openSUSE so far?

[11:23] < Davbo> it's been awesome so far

[11:25] < Chong-> cool

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[11:31] < vmlemon_> Hi

[11:35] < Chong-> Hi, vmlemon_

[11:49] < Lawouach_> back

[11:49] < Lawouach_> I've long been a fan of KDE but the default theme of KDE4, although nice to look at, is really confusing to me

[11:49] < Lawouach_> And it crashed quite a bit indeed

[11:50] < Lawouach_> I'm also quite saddened because UbuntuStudio just won't let me use my M-Audio Firewire solo out of the box

[11:50] < Lawouach_> It's just a pain

[11:51] < vmlemon> Sounds fun

[11:52] < Lawouach_> I wish it was

[11:52] < vmlemon> kamaeliabot: dance

[11:52] Reply: does the macarena

[11:53] < vmlemon> Heh, they've got a tea party in the college library

[11:53] < vmlemon> Something to do with some award

[11:53] < Davbo> ouch Lawouach_, that's not very good for a "Studio" distribution. That M-audio gear is expensive too.

[11:54] < vmlemon> Any major problems with OpenSuSE?

[11:57] < vmlemon> Yay, new version of RealPlayer for Linux

[11:57] < vmlemon> (Version 11)

[11:58] < vmlemon> http://www.real.com/linux#

[11:59] < Davbo> no problems really

[11:59] < vmlemon> Looks like some interesting features

[11:59] < vmlemon> I guess that the Big Deal hasn't altered your impression of the distribution itself, then?

[12:00] < vmlemon> Although I'd personally judge the distribution on it's own merits, and not those of the sponsoring organization

[12:00] < Lawouach_> Davbo: well I know it works because I made it work in the past

[12:00] < Lawouach_> I hoped it'd work out of the box this time

[12:00] < Lawouach_> meh

[12:00] < Lawouach_> I shall wait for a few weeks after some bugs have been fixed

[12:13] *** Davbo just made use of something made by someone on SoC last year

[12:13] < Davbo> (SVG support in openoffice)

[12:17] < Davbo> File a bug on launchpad Lawouach_, you never know.

[12:17] < Davbo> Anyways, off to university. Back later

[13:51] < Lawouach_> http://ironpython-urls.blogspot.com/2008/04/standalone-silverlight-applications.html

[13:51] < Lawouach_> Now that is interesting

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[14:37] < vmlemon_> Hi

[14:46] < ms-away> For anyone near leeds: http://www.oldbroadcastinghouse.com/events/another-evening-with-clive-grinyer/ (I'm tempted to go along to that actually - I've heard RMS's views enough over the past 24 years...)

[14:46] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: dance

[14:46] Reply: does the macarena

[14:46] *** ms-away is now known as ms0

[14:46] *** ms0 is now known as ms-

[14:48] < ms-> bcarlyon|ubuntu_: Just a note - if you'd like space in subversion to check in the code you created, you'd be more than welcome - it did look like useful code :)

[14:48] < ms-> I know you'll be busy with other stuff, but the offer is there

[14:49] < vmlemon_> I guess that RMS speaches are like old videos - they get boring after the first/only time ;)

[14:49] < ms-> Well, the thing is I remember the GNU manifesto being printed in the Guardian when I was a wee bairn

[14:49] < ms-> but I'd been programming for a few years at that point, so it was interesting

[14:50] < vmlemon_> Aah

[14:50] < ms-> So, yeah, gets a bit samey :)

[14:51] < vmlemon_> The newspaper is last place in the world where I'd expect to hear about open source... (although I'd say the same of radio and TV)

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[15:06] < ms-> vmlemon_: Yeah, but it was new, interesting, the early/mid eighties and very, very tree hugging hippy even for then really - so perfect material for the guardian's computing column on a thursday (IIRC)

[15:09] < vmlemon_> Still, nice that it got some media coverage

[15:10] < ms-> indeed, they were very positive about it

[15:10] < ms-> Even glossed over the asteroid mining

[15:10] < vmlemon_> Asteroid mining?

[15:11] < ms-> People will be free to devote themselves to activities that are fun, such as programming, after spending the necessary ten hours a week on required tasks such as legislation, family counseling, robot repair and asteroid prospecting.

[15:11] < ms-> There will be no need to be able to make a living from programming.

[15:11] < vmlemon_> Hah

[15:12] < ms-> Comes from the utopian vision of "if we can automate it, we can all do less work"

[15:12] < vmlemon_> Aah

[15:13] < ms-> Whereas the reality seems to be "oh, it took you less time? Excellent ! Here's more!"

[15:13] < vmlemon_> Oh so true

[15:51] < j_baker> biab

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[18:04] < MS-> greetings

[18:52] < jle> Gweetings.

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[19:08] < j_baker> If I ever hear the words "complex text query" again, I think I'm going to hurl.

[19:08] < j_baker> OTOH, I'm done with my big final project now. :)

[19:08] < MS-> cool

[19:09] < MS-> congrats

[19:09] < j_baker> Thanks.

[19:10] < Davbo> nice work j_baker, now could you just help me with this complex text query please

[19:10] < Davbo> ;P

[19:10] *** j_baker punches Davbo

[19:10] < Davbo> Haha :)

[19:11] < j_baker> :P

[19:14] < j_baker> "Suppose juliet@capulet.com wants to chat with romeo@montague.net."

[19:15] < j_baker> If shakespeare wrote IM protocols...

[19:16] < Davbo> lol :P

[19:17] < Davbo> Agh, some guy in my group refuses to work on a class till all the others are done

[19:17] < Davbo> because it "needs the other classes"

[19:17] < Davbo> the point of OOP is so that you can work like that!

[19:18] < Davbo> I get so frustrated that I've ended up leading this group but I get no credit for it

[19:18] *** Davbo slams head on desk

[19:18] < j_baker> When is the project due?

[19:19] < Davbo> oh you know, Friday.

[19:19] < Davbo> :|

[19:19] < Davbo> This guy keeps saying he's done code but keeps "forgetting" to bring it in lol

[19:20] < j_baker> Heh... that's amazing.

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[20:16] < vmlemon_> Hi

[20:18] < MS-> hi

[20:20] < Davbo> Evenin' all.

[20:21] < vmlemon_> Hi Davbo

[20:21] < Davbo> y'alright vmlemon_, MS-?

[20:21] *** vmlemon_ is OK

[20:28] < Davbo> Trying to get a lot of work out of the way so i have time to play GTA IV tomorrow :)

[20:28] *** vmlemon_ is trying to get MIDI playback working

[20:29] < Davbo> what you need MIDI for?

[20:29] < vmlemon_> I'm wanting to play some MIDI files that I have floating around on my disk at the moment

[20:29] < Davbo> Ah

[20:30] < vmlemon_> Kind of annoyingly, 4Front have broken "native" OSS MIDI playback in 4.0, until 4.1 :(

[20:30] < vmlemon_> So I'm having to try and see if TiMidity will work

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[20:31] < Davbo> is it worth trying to use KMail or should i just use Thunderbird?

[20:31] < vmlemon_> As for ALSA, it Just Wouldn't Work with my laptop's generic audio chipset, for some unknown reason

[20:31] < vmlemon_> I'd try both, and see which you prefer

[20:32] < vmlemon_> Personally, I'd go for Thunderbird

[20:32] < Davbo> Yeah i'm used to Thunderbird

[20:32] < Davbo> think i'll just stick with it

[20:32] < vmlemon_> (It seems to have more features, and is extensible)

[20:32] < Davbo> especially now i've downloaded all my mail for it lol :)

[20:32] < vmlemon_> Evolution looks interesting, though

[20:35] < MS-> Interesting: http://revactor.org/

[20:36] < MS-> Davbo: I'm fine thanks

[20:36] < j_baker_> Heh... they even mention kamaelia

[20:37] < MS-> A long long time ago I used the ancestor to thunderbird for email & usenet - when they were still a part of Netscape Communicator

[20:37] < MS-> Probably when it was version 3 (maybe 4)

[20:37] < MS-> I've used kmail now for many years

[20:38] < MS-> j_baker_: I periodically google kamaelia to see if anyone's saying anything interesting

[20:38] < MS-> (the advantage of a constructed spelling)

[20:38] < Davbo> lol :)

[20:39] < Davbo> That website refuses to load

[20:39] < Davbo> :(

[20:39] < MS-> revactor strikes me as interesting because it validates that the research is getting somewhere (you can't expect people to use your code, but if they take the ideas and merge them in their own idiomatic way for their language it all works better)

[20:39] < MS-> (given multicore is a reality that's just going to continue)

[20:43] < Davbo> Ah that's nice to see MS-

[20:45] *** Davbo looking at Google cache

[20:45] < Davbo> is it actor in the sense of a UML "Use Case" ?

[20:45] < MS-> Not really no

[20:45] < MS-> A kamaelia component is pretty much equivalent to an actor

[20:46] < Davbo> Ah, interesting

[20:46] < MS-> Stuff happens, comes in, events infomation comes out

[20:46] < Davbo> where does it differ to Kamaelia/what language they using?

[20:46] < Davbo> (sorry, it wont load)

[20:46] < MS-> Often the approach taken is to have a single input source

[20:46] < MS-> And then split that based on pattern matching

[20:47] < MS-> This makes sense because normally the original context is in that of a functional language

[20:47] < MS-> rather than imperative/OO

[20:47] < Davbo> Yeah, they're using Ruby there?

[20:47] < MS-> yep

[20:48] < MS-> Whereas essentially by having seperate boxes we explicitly make information much more obvious

[20:48] < MS-> about how/why it's going to be used

[20:48] < Davbo> Yeah

[20:48] < Davbo> Perhaps they will develop their project along these roots

[20:48] < MS-> Kamaelia's based on the Occam/Unix pipelines/CSP/Asynchronous hardware

[20:48] < MS-> And those all default to multiple channels

[20:48] < MS-> Which is also why we have multiple boxes

[20:49] < MS-> The inboxes/outboxes thing was about looking for a metaphor that is very obvious to understand

[20:49] < MS-> And internal mail in the BBC uses intrays & outtrays, so I quite literally was looking at a metaphor :)

[20:50] < Davbo> Yeah, I'll play with this Revactor when it works for me

[20:50] < Davbo> my ISP has been awful recently

[20:50] < MS-> In a way, the trick they might be missing is that often it looks like people tend to focus on

[20:50] < Davbo> I wonder how the actors interact in this

[20:50] < MS-> "ooh, I have actors"

[20:51] < MS-> Whereas I made sure the focus was on composition

[20:51] < MS-> which only really works if you make it possible to join a->b->c->d

[20:51] < Davbo> Actors sound like an implementation of something like a pipeline but not the in/outboxes

[20:52] < Davbo> "I have these actors and they talk to each other like this"

[20:52] < MS-> I kinda view it the other way round. It's an implementation of the main method and a mailbox

[20:53] < MS-> You can filter messages based on their format

[20:53] < MS-> But have a non-declarative way of dealing with it.

[20:54] < MS-> Which is really what named in/outboxes give you. They also decouple not just the

[20:54] < MS-> where you get data *from*

[20:54] < MS-> But also where the data is going *to*

[20:54] < MS-> Which is why I think we tend to focus on building stuff than worrying about actors, concurrency etc :-)

[20:55] < MS-> ok afk for a bit

[20:55] < Davbo> I agree, that's the benefit of having such an obvious metaphor

[20:56] < Davbo> it *sounds* like the actors aren't quite as low level as in/outbox interaction

[20:57] < Davbo> cool that they've cited Kamaelia :)

[21:06] < Davbo> back in a bit

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[21:58] < j_baker_> You know what someone should make? An online text editor for writing code.

[21:59] < j_baker_> Sorta like pastebin, but it doesn't suck for actually coding.

[22:01] < Davbo> somewhere between pastebin and google docs?

[22:01] < Davbo> sounds good

[22:01] < Davbo> brb

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