[00:26] < Chong-> Good night, all.

[00:26] *** Chong- has parted #kamaelia

[00:55] *** bcarlyon|ubuntu_ has joined #kamaelia

[08:24] *** mhrd_afk has joined #kamaelia

[09:02] *** orphans has joined #kamaelia

[09:31] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[09:32] < orphans> morning MS-

[09:33] < MS-> greetings

[09:34] < orphans> hows it going?

[09:35] < MS-> OK - I have around 1000 spams to despam this morning though

[09:36] < orphans> productivity -= lots :)

[09:36] < MS-> yep

[09:36] < MS-> Home email spam == None

[09:36] < MS-> Work emails spam == OTT

[09:36] < orphans> kamaelia grey == awesome :D

[09:37] < MS-> Indeed :)

[09:37] < MS-> Best thing I've written in the past year IMO

[09:37] < MS-> Has actually made email still usable - for the moment

[09:39] < orphans> there's a brilliant thread on the student list at the moment - sheer confusion reigns

[09:39] *** orphans paraphrases

[09:39] < orphans> lh - "Send us tax forms, I think you need this one but ianal"

[09:40] < orphans> a.n.student - "I talked to someone and they said I maybe need the one you said, but maybe this other one depending on how you define foreign"

[09:40] < MS-> In the US it's simple

[09:40] < MS-> - ask the IRS

[09:40] < orphans> ls - "I talked to google lawyers and they say I can't tell you which you really need because then they'd be giving you legal advice"

[09:40] < orphans> *lh

[09:40] < MS-> Yep

[09:41] < MS-> california law is really quite nasty about non-lawyers giving legal advice

[09:41] < orphans> the vagueries of law and tax are far beyond me :)

[09:41] < MS-> they's why they all claim they engage in acts most of us wouldn't even think of mentioning in public :-D

[09:41] < orphans> heh :)

[09:43] < orphans> think I'll wait for the dust to settle and see what everyone else does

[10:51] *** bcarlyon|nub has joined #kamaelia

[12:09] < MS-> dust settled yet?

[12:12] < orphans> nah, all gone quiet

[12:13] < orphans> tbh I reckon it'll probably be alright either way unless someone from google says something in the next couple of days

[12:14] < MS-> Yep

[12:14] < orphans> it's not like they're not going to pay anyone unless you send in a form which they haven't told you to send

[12:14] < MS-> ERRTOOMANYDOUBNEGS

[12:14] < orphans> oops :)

[12:15] < MS-> They can't pay anyone if you haven't sent a tax form

[12:15] < MS-> Either saying "take this tax" or "don't take this tax" in the right way

[12:15] < MS-> People outside the US it should be fairly clear which is the right one

[12:15] < orphans> it's a little silly if they won't tell you what the right way is though

[12:15] < MS-> Problem ones are people with visa normally

[12:16] < orphans> ahh, yeah, I think I've been getting it all a bit confused :)

[12:17] < orphans> hard to differentiate between the advice for foreign students in the US and foreign nationals getting paid from the US

[12:18] < MS-> IIRC you probably need a W8-BEN form (I think)

[12:18] < MS-> Since its similar to getting paid benefits from shares bought/sold in the US

[12:18] < MS-> In money terms

[12:18] < MS-> regarding tax etc

[12:19] < MS-> http://www.rbs-sharedealing.co.uk/forms/forms_international_notes.cfm gives some comments

[12:19] < orphans> it's all a hideous wreck of legalese

[12:19] < orphans> according to an old(ish) post by lh we only need a foreign certification form

[12:20] < MS-> That's what the W8-BEN form is

[12:21] < orphans> ahhh

[12:21] *** Lawouach_ has joined #kamaelia

[12:21] < Lawouach_> afternoon

[12:21] < orphans> is an international student (F-1) someone studying in the US then?

[12:21] < MS-> Lawouach_: greetings

[12:21] < orphans> hey Lawouach_

[12:21] < MS-> orphans: I guess

[12:22] < orphans> think I understand then :)

[12:22] < MS-> orphans: The alternative is you get taxed twice - once in the US and once in the UK

[12:22] < orphans> we need a w8-ben, us students need w9 and F-1 students need w8 :D

[12:23] < orphans> MS-, yeah. Think I need a book for all this stuff, it's hideous

[12:23] < Lawouach_> Normally Google ought to be able to pay the gross amount directly to the students and let them be taxed only in the UK

[12:24] < MS-> Lawouach_: Yep, that's what they aim to do, but they need to have a W8-BEN form on file to allow that to happen

[12:24] < MS-> orphans: See section 1.8 of your participation agreement in GSOC

[12:24] < Lawouach_> I see

[12:24] < MS-> orphans: on here: http://code.google.com/soc/2008/student_step1.html

[12:25] < orphans> yeah

[12:26] < orphans> hum, but the form you have to fill out for google isn't a w8-ben I don't think...

[12:26] < MS-> I bet it is :)

[12:27] < MS-> 50p

[12:27] < orphans> your on!

[12:27] < orphans> This: http://tinyurl.com/5l4osu

[12:27] < orphans> is that just a w8-ben with all of the crap taken out of the IRS one

[12:28] < orphans> obviously in an MS-is-not-a-lawyer sense :)

[12:28] < MS-> "You cannot view the group's content or participate in the group because you are not currently a member.  Members must be approved before joining."

[12:29] < orphans> *sigh*

[12:30] < MS-> Nah

[12:30] < MS-> Won't that wouldn't be an issue

[12:32] < orphans> http://orphans.atspace.com/Student%20Foreign%20Certification%20Form%20Summer%20of%20C.pdf

[12:33] *** orphans crosses fingers for 50p

[12:35] < MS-> interesting.

[12:36] < MS-> That is different

[12:36] < MS-> W8-BEN form is longer

[12:36] < MS-> It used to be a W8BEN form fwiw

[12:36] < MS-> I can see holes in that disclaimer as well

[12:37] < MS-> Since technically it really can't be true until after the programme has finished.

[12:37] < MS-> and is only the case if you don't go to the US

[12:37] < MS-> or if you do, you don't write any code there :)

[12:37] < orphans> it all seems a little crazy to me

[12:37] < MS-> (eg students visiting OSCON)

[12:37] < MS-> Well, they do have Bush in charge...

[12:38] < orphans> on the list someone asked about visiting the US, lh said you weren't allowed to work on SoC whilst you were there

[12:38] < MS-> yep

[12:38] < MS-> Otherwise that disclaimer would be false

[12:38] < orphans> otherwise there's a whole other mess of forms :)

[12:38] < MS-> Yes, I'm sure there is

[12:38] < orphans> honestly, being a lawyer/accountant must be the most soul destroying work

[12:39] *** MS- refrains from some obvious comments

[12:39] < orphans> MS-, about the existence of souls in lawers/accountants?

[12:40] < orphans> or the use of the word honestly in a sentence with the word lawyer in...

[12:41] < MS-> Nah, all the lawyers I've had dealings with have been nice/good people

[12:42] < orphans> :) I guess the beeb has a legal team the size of a small country?

[12:42] < MS-> nah, but the people I've spoken to there are nice

[12:43] < MS-> (they're not the only ones I've spoken to though)

[12:43] < MS-> We did bounce the contributor agreement back and forth for a few months you see

[12:43] < orphans> yeah, I guess stuff like that has to be pretty tight

[12:44] < orphans> just in case

[12:44] < MS-> and they were concerned that we were asking for too many rights over the code, until I pointed out that in practical terms in means you get to be able to ask us to go after anyone breaking the MPL/GPL/LGPL over your code

[12:44] < MS-> rather you having to

[12:44] < orphans> yeah

[12:45] < orphans> does gpl-violations still exist? They used to do that didn't they - go after people breaking open source licenses on behalf of the coder

[12:46] < MS-> They do still exist, but it's not quite as simple as it might seem

[12:46] < MS-> Besides the BBC have had to deal with copyright infringement issues for a rather long time

[12:47] < MS-> and can probably do so in a saner way than (say) certain nasty industry groups or even younger groups like gpl-violations

[12:47] < orphans> yeah, I can imagine they're pretty solid on stuff like that :)

[12:47] < MS-> After all, the best starting point (which many people miss/forget) is

[12:47] < MS-> "Did you know that..." or "Ohh, I didn't know that you had a ..."

[13:16] < orphans> gah, latex is far too clever for me - I keep adding paragraphs to my report, and it keeps rearranging the pictures so it never gets and longer in page terms :)

[13:17] *** orphans is concerned about quantity, not quality

[13:17] < MS-> You need to switch to verbose mode

[13:18] < MS-> If it's intended to be an academic paper verbose mode is often orthoganal to impenetrable mode

[13:18] < MS-> If it's a thesis, you generally want both

[13:20] < orphans> bit of a latex newb, didn't understand a word of that :)

[13:20] *** MS- is sure mhrd_afk will understand

[13:23] < orphans> think that one might have flown straight over my poor hurting academically challenged head :)

[13:25] *** MS- goes for lunch

[13:28] *** Uraeus has joined #kamaelia

[14:01] *** MS- is back

[14:15] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> MS-: i thought you were front

[14:16] *** MS- is now known as spanishinquisiti

[14:16] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> hah

[14:16] < spanishinquisiti> foiled!

[14:16] *** spanishinquisiti has parted #kamaelia

[14:17] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> No one expects the spanish inquisition....

[14:17] *** ms- has joined #kamaelia

[14:26] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> To be honest no one expects ms-

[14:30] < Lawouach_> alright boys

[14:31] < Lawouach_> I'll be going soon and won't be back onlin until Sunday afternoon.

[14:31] < ms-> Lawouach_: OK - have fun - and see you then :)

[14:32] < Lawouach_> thanks mate

[14:33] < Lawouach_> I'll have my whole Sunday afternoon dedicated to coding so I will finally have the time to discuss the mentoring more extensively.

[14:33] < ms-> cool

[14:33] < Lawouach_> I've been quite busy this week unfortunately.

[14:33] < ms-> Such is life

[14:34] < Lawouach_> There is wisdom right there.

[14:34] < Lawouach_> ;)

[14:37] < ms-> Much like the immortal ine

[14:37] < ms-> line

[14:37] < ms-> "No, don't touch that but...."

[14:37] < ms-> *BOOM*

[14:38] < Lawouach_> Lethal Weapon 2 ?

[14:42] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> cake

[14:42] < ms-> Lawouach_: Could be. It's in lots of things :)

[14:44] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[14:44] < Lawouach_> :)

[14:44] < Lawouach_> anyway

[14:44] < Lawouach_> see you guys on Sunday

[14:45] < j_baker> Anybody have any wireless router recommendations?

[14:46] < j_baker> I've got one by Belkin. It sucks.

[14:46] < ms-> I used to have a sucky Belkin

[14:46] < ms-> I now have a less sucky netgear

[14:48] < j_baker> I hear the best things about Linksys and DLink

[14:51] < ms-> yep

[14:52] < ms-> My netgear seems to work, which for me is the important thing

[14:52] < ms-> Unlike the belkin which would *often* work

[14:53] < j_baker> My belkin doesn't even do that anymore.

[14:54] < j_baker> It will work when it wants to.

[14:54] < j_baker> And when it does, it's slow as hell.

[14:54] < ms-> Sounds like time to replace it with a wet piece of string

[14:54] *** simon89 has joined #kamaelia

[14:54] < ms-> (which sounds more effective)

[14:54] *** bcarlyon|ubuntu_ has joined #kamaelia

[14:55] < j_baker> lol

[14:55] < j_baker> Well, right now I'm directly connected to my modem.

[14:57] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> pie!!

[14:58] < j_baker> cake?

[14:59] < ms-> pie isn't a verb and a noun

[14:59] < ms-> cake is

[14:59] < ms-> (as is beer incidentally)

[14:59] < ms-> < /random>

[14:59] < j_baker> Cake you

[15:00] < ms-> I am not a cake

[15:00] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> beer please

[15:00] < j_baker> I was just demonstrating cake's verbishness. :P

[15:00] *** ms- hands bcarlyon|lsrfm a virtual beer

[15:02] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> yay!

[15:07] < j_baker> Be careful. You don't want a virtual hangover.

[15:11] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> indeed

[15:14] < j_baker> :s When I go to WIndows update from IE on my windows machine, it tells me that I'm using a mac...

[15:14] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> are you on a mac?

[15:15] < j_baker> Nope.

[15:19] *** bcarlyon|ubuntu_ has joined #kamaelia

[15:20] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> ooh I quit and rejoined.....

[15:45] < j_baker> brb... restarting

[15:45] *** j_baker has parted #kamaelia

[15:47] *** ms- leaves

[15:47] < ms-> back later

[15:47] *** ms- has parted #kamaelia

[15:57] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> ms- smells funnt

[15:57] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> ms- smells funny

[16:36] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[16:38] < vmlemon_> Hi

[16:46] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[17:20] < vmlemon_> Hi j_baker

[17:20] < j_baker> hello

[17:39] *** bcarlyon|ubuntu_ has joined #kamaelia

[17:42] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[17:46] < vmlemon_> Hi bcarlyon|ubuntu_ and MS-

[17:46] < MS-> hi

[18:14] *** bcarlyon|ubuntu_ has joined #kamaelia

[18:28] *** MS- pays gas bill

[18:28] < MS-> *sobs*

[18:34] < orphans> there there MS-

[18:34] < orphans> at least it's (probably) not as big as the electricity bill I got today

[18:42] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[18:43] < Davbo> Downloading openSUSE, given up with that Kubuntu. The only thing "Adept" is adept at is crashing.

[18:43] *** Davbo sighs

[18:43] < Davbo> if only the "distribution upgrade" button wasn't so tempting

[18:45] < MS-> orphans: I'd wager it's significantly bigger

[18:45] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: Give MS- a tissue and a hug...

[18:45] < vmlemon_> "Distribution Downgrade" button, anyone?

[18:45] < vmlemon_> ;)

[18:45] < orphans> mines six months worth in a six person house?

[18:46] < orphans> although admittedly I will get money off people for it :)

[18:47] < Davbo> indeed vmlemon_. Anyway - evenin' all

[18:47] < orphans> evening Davbo

[18:47] < vmlemon_> Yay, http://house404.co.uk/toobusy.png

[18:53] *** vmlemon_ wonders if the chameleon's name is SuSE...

[18:58] < Davbo> MS-, Richard Stallman is doing a talk at the University of Manchester apparently

[18:58] < Davbo> if you're interested

[18:58] < Davbo> got an email about it at uni

[18:58] < Davbo> Was it Chong who's at Manchester?

[18:59] < Davbo> http://www.fsf.org/events/20080501manchesteruk

[19:02] < Davbo> Hah also got an email from one of the members of my group: "could you please tell me which part do I need to work on and give the details

[19:02] < Davbo> so that I could complete all over the weekend.

[19:02] *** Davbo laughs and assigns him User Interface

[19:02] < Davbo> Have fun with Swing!

[19:04] < orphans> cruelty :)

[19:04] < vmlemon_> Broken park equipment immediately springs to mind, here ;)

[19:05] < Davbo> he shouldn't have asked what I wanted him to work on then orphans :P

[19:05] < MS-> Davbo: He is

[19:06] < MS-> I know about Stallman going there

[19:06] < MS-> Just not sure I can sit through a 2.5 hour rant really

[19:06] < MS-> DId offer (to the organisers) to put him up though when I heard that no-one wanted to host him

[19:07] < Davbo> He that bad ?

[19:07] < MS-> But it turned out they'd found someone by then

[19:07] < Davbo> I don't know much about him to be honest

[19:07] < MS-> Dunno - I don't like to pre-judge people, and the reason I offered was because it's one way of really find out what someone is really like

[19:07] < MS-> :)

[19:07] < orphans> MS- wakes up to find his bios has been zeroed for it's non-freeness :)

[19:07] < MS-> Much better way than listening to someone's talks

[19:07] < MS-> heh

[19:08] < Davbo> There's a video somewhere of him singing a free software song.

[19:08] < vmlemon_> I bet RMS is secretly a Windows Vista beta tester

[19:08] < MS-> I did make jokes saying I could switch over to windows briefly

[19:08] < vmlemon_> ;)

[19:08] < MS-> But I wouldn't really do something to wind someone up

[19:08] < MS-> Life's too short really

[19:08] < Davbo> Hehe

[19:09] < vmlemon_> "Free As In Pinched Off A Torrent Site!"

[19:09] < orphans> "no but really Mr Stallman, vim is sooo better than emacs" :)

[19:09] < MS-> Besides, from what I've heard he's fairly easy to wind up by mistake

[19:09] < Davbo> Ah.

[19:09] < Davbo> lol orphans :)

[19:10] < vmlemon_> orphans: It's true, too

[19:10] < vmlemon_> ;)

[19:11] < vmlemon_> How ironic

[19:11] < MS-> indeed

[19:11] < vmlemon_> I'm sure that there was nothing stopping him from ordering from the full range of menu options

[19:11] < MS-> Indeed.

[19:11] < MS-> And many people were doing so

[19:12] < MS-> The only reason I'm tempted to go along to that talk really is to ask 2 questions (which I could've asked if I was hosting him as well)

[19:13] < Davbo> Strong ideologists are always rather eccentric though

[19:13] < orphans> MS-, what qs?

[19:14] < MS-> 1) Are his views on free software based on Kant's philosophy on ethics, since they appear to be, and if so, what are his views on a foundation of free software based on the philosophy of the stoics ---

[19:14] < MS-> who do not agree with the concepts of innate good/evil and describe them in terms of preferred/dispreferred, rather than absolutes

[19:15] < MS-> The second one is dependent on a yes (basically philosophy)

[19:16] *** vmlemon_ finds RMS almost as bad as Microsoft in that they're both on a crusade to make "their platform" the "only one", to the exclusion of everything else, or so it seems...

[19:16] < MS-> the second one is 2) Based on this, is your belief in the philosophy you state based on a decision to choose that one philosophy is more valid than another or is it based on evidence ?

[19:16] < MS-> Basically, a) is it this belief system and why not that beliefe system b) is that view based on belief (faith) or science

[19:17] < MS-> vmlemon_: Indeed

[19:17] *** MS- has to go for food

[19:17] < MS-> biab

[19:17] < orphans> MS-, both interesting questions - I'd like to hear the answers :)

[19:18] < vmlemon_> MS wants everything to only run Windows, and RMS wants everything to only run HURD (or maybe Linux, at a push)

[19:18] < vmlemon_> I'm sure that things like the BSDs and Mac OS wouldn't even get a look in, if one of them got their way

[19:22] < Davbo> in conclusion: RMS has a funny beard.

[19:22] < vmlemon_> Hah

[19:23] < vmlemon_> RMS = Reverse Microsoft? ;)

[19:24] < Davbo> Yeah he doesn't sound much better, heh.

[19:25] < vmlemon_> Jehovah's Witness parallels? "Join The Freedom Crusade, Or Else!"

[19:26] < vmlemon_> Or are they trying a more Scientology-like approach? ;)

[19:26] < vmlemon_> "We will drag everyone in, kicking and screaming..."

[19:27] < Davbo> Wow cool, openSUSE is installing in windows :/

[19:27] < vmlemon_> (No, I'm not anti-FSF/RMS, but I do take their propaganda with a pinch of salt)

[19:28] < Davbo> I agree, you really have to vmlemon_. Some good ideas but a bit preachy

[19:28] < Davbo> (a lot preachy)

[19:28] < vmlemon_> I dislike the GPLv3, too

[19:28] < vmlemon_> They kind of lost their way with it, in my view

[19:29] < Davbo> I haven't read it to be honest.

[19:29] < vmlemon_> Open Source's answer to "Bible Bashers"/"Tambourine Beaters" , anyone?

[19:30] < vmlemon_> ;)

[19:30] < Davbo> Difficult to see where their foundationalist philosphy ends and views on OSS start?

[19:30] < vmlemon_> It was a crusade fuelled by an initial incident with a laser printer...

[19:31] < vmlemon_> Somewhat strangly

[19:31] < vmlemon_> *strangely

[19:31] < vmlemon_> Or at least that's the synopsis I'd give, based on their history pages

[19:31] < Davbo> lol the openSUSE installer has crashed

[19:39] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: dance

[19:39] Reply: does the macarena

[19:42] < vmlemon_> To their credit, they have gave the world a lot of fairly high-quality software which would have been very expensive to obtain otherwise, along with all the source code it comprises of

[19:42] < vmlemon_> (e.g. compilation toolchains and an almost entire userland for a UNIX-based OS)

[19:49] < vmlemon_> I'm sure that they've partly influenced various initiatives from mostly proprietary companies to release source code either as fully-fledged Open Source (e.g. RealNetworks) , or as publically viewable Sources Available code (e.g. QNX)

[19:53] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[20:18] *** MS- notes in logs for j_baker - not sure, but they're just javascript, so they shouldn't be that difficult

[20:19] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[20:20] < MS-> vmlemon_: microsoft wanting everything to run windows is true

[20:20] < MS-> whereas I think the assertion "RMS wants everything to only run HURD (or maybe Linux, at a push)" is false

[20:20] < MS-> He just wants whatever X people run to be free software.

[20:20] < MS-> (by his definition of free)

[20:21] < MS-> If Microsoft did that, he'd be happy about it I'm sure.

[20:21] < vmlemon_> Hmm, good point, but he does seem to be slightly overboard with the whole thing

[20:21] < MS-> Indeed

[20:21] *** MS- wonders if Davbo has something against people with beards...

[20:22] < vmlemon_> As much as I dislike Microsoft, I can see things stagnating quickly without them to keep others on their toes

[20:22] < MS-> I'm not so sure of that myself

[20:22] < vmlemon_> If I phrased that correctly...

[20:22] < MS-> Yeah, I got what you mean :)

[20:23] < vmlemon_> Or at least they add to the pool of competition

[20:23] < MS-> After all Microsoft have been largely irrelevent in the world of networking

[20:23] < MS-> from inception in the late 70s/early 80s through to today

[20:23] < vmlemon_> It would be one less choice available

[20:23] < MS-> Indeed, but it's also a choice that most informed network admins wouldn't take

[20:24] < vmlemon_> It's taken them a very long time to try and get out of the "every PC is an island" mentality, and even now they still seem to have streaks of it showing

[20:24] < MS-> Yep, it's large org mentality. "We Matter Because We're Big"

[20:24] < vmlemon_> (i.e. the way that Windows installations make users run as Administrator/root by default)

[20:24] < MS-> The BBC has that problem all the time as well

[20:24] < MS-> yep

[20:25] < vmlemon_> It would be a strange world without them, though

[20:25] < MS-> I can't see microsoft disappearing myself

[20:25] < MS-> I can see them evolving completely though

[20:26] < vmlemon_> I was just going to say myself

[20:26] < vmlemon_> They won't fade away overnight

[20:26] < j_baker> For a network, I don't know that I would say MS is irrelevant. Love it or hate it, Windows is at least a safe decision.

[20:26] < MS-> Much like IBM had to when Microsoft pulled the rug out rom under them

[20:26] < j_baker> Who's ever gotten fired for buying a windows machine?

[20:26] < MS-> heh, in the places I've worked, choosing Microsoft as a solution would've gotten me fired

[20:26] < vmlemon_> Although they will probably fade themselves slightly into the background, as IBM have done

[20:27] < MS-> Well, IBM have changed their model from hardware to services

[20:27] < j_baker> But I agree that microsoft will have to innovate to stay alive.

[20:27] < vmlemon_> (They probably won't try and make themselves look dominant/overbearing)

[20:27] < j_baker> But I also think that there will need to be a competitor other than Linux or Apple for them to start losing ground.

[20:27] < MS-> Ubuntu is that competitor IMO

[20:28] < MS-> I might not use Ubuntu at present

[20:28] < MS-> But that's because I'm waiting for it to get to the stage where it won't hack me off

[20:28] < MS-> (must remember to try the new version actually)

[20:29] < MS-> The reason I say that is because they have as their number one goal to *be* that competitor

[20:29] < vmlemon_> Personally, I'd be concerned if all of a sudden Windows and maybe even Mac OS were to drop off the face of the earth, and Linux was the only thing around (similar to the Windows situation, although things are starting to tilt in other directions)

[20:29] < MS-> Yep, likewise

[20:29] < j_baker> I haven't tried the new Ubuntu, but last time I tried it, it still didn't seem as easy to use as Windows or OS X.

[20:29] < j_baker> But they have probably advanced since then.

[20:29] < MS-> It won't be, but its getting better

[20:30] < vmlemon_> Wasn't "Bug #1" to get rid of Microsoft, or at least reduce their market share significantly?

[20:30] < MS-> Also, I Mark Shuttleworth gave the keynote speech at Europython in 2004 (I think, maybe 03, but pretty certain it was O4)

[20:30] < MS-> and among the things he talked about was his desire to build a new linux distro

[20:30] < MS-> that would "Have a really cool name I can't tell you yet"

[20:30] < MS-> and be heavily python oriented (because he likes python and made his fortune because of python...)

[20:31] < MS-> And whilst that is Bug #1

[20:31] < MS-> in terms of how he wanted to achieve that

[20:31] < MS-> was that he actually wanted Linux to be as usable, if not more usable, than OS X

[20:31] < MS-> So a good clear business goal, and a good clear user focussed goal as well

[20:32] *** vmlemon_ considers Linux to be fairly generic/"the supermarket white-label baked beans" of OSes (in the sense that lots of people put a different label on it/package it slightly differently, it's still pretty much an identical product underneath), although others here will probably disagree...

[20:32] < vmlemon_> *but it's

[20:32] < MS-> Things like the eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepc and other things are helping make things more mainstream as well

[20:32] < MS-> (eg the eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepc has caused problems in supply lines for batteries due to popularity...)

[20:33] < MS-> Yeah, I agree

[20:33] < MS-> People get their knickers in a twist about distros

[20:33] < vmlemon_> You can put any face on it you want, but it's still pretty much "the same as the other guy's product"

[20:33] < MS-> but the only differences between them all is user friendliness of different kinds of user (sys admins, network admins, server admins, developers, desktop users)

[20:34] < vmlemon_> (look at the one-button distribution making scripts and the hundreds of almost identical Red Hat/Ubuntu variants with slightly different desktop backgrounds)

[20:34] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[20:34] < MS-> At present open suse wins there for the sorts of things I do. Though I expect ubuntu to overtake there

[20:35] < Davbo> SUSE install went quite well

[20:35] < Davbo> took quite a while since i let it update everything though

[20:36] < vmlemon_> I often wonder how many "degrees of difference" each distribution has from the other

[20:36] < j_baker> I have a friend whose answer to every computer problem is "install linux on it."

[20:36] < vmlemon_> *others

[20:36] < MS-> j_baker: They need a clue then

[20:36] < j_baker> And this even means no BSD.

[20:37] < MS-> Any particular *reason* behind that?

[20:37] < MS-> Or just because they've let advocacy get in the way of reason?

[20:37] < j_baker> Fanboyism

[20:37] *** vmlemon_ can see Solaris starting to take off, if only because "It's Not Linux", and because of things like ZFS and DTrace (although they've started to show up in other OSes)

[20:38] < MS-> I can't really see solaris growing much myself.

[20:38] < MS-> Not unless sun start selling desktop hardware or can encourage a company that does to install it

[20:38] < vmlemon_> It's still pretty much a niche product

[20:38] < j_baker> Leopard has DTrace as well.

[20:38] < vmlemon_> even more so than Linux

[20:38] < vmlemon_> or *BSD

[20:38] < MS-> Leopard has a crippled DTrace

[20:38] < j_baker> And it's speculated that future versions will have ZFS.

[20:39] < MS-> (Refuses to work for certain applications)

[20:39] < j_baker> Heh... yeah. Leopard DTrace can't work on iTunes

[20:39] < vmlemon_> You can always modify the source code, and fix that

[20:39] < vmlemon_> (Apple makes it available, along with that "feature" modification)

[20:40] < vmlemon_> Of course, in true Linux style, there exists a half-baked knock-off/RIvTW Exercise in the form of SystemTap

[20:40] < j_baker> Apple's a big fan of the "binary blob" form of distribution. For example, Safari is open source except for a few really key areas.

[20:41] < vmlemon_> I suppose there's Darwin if you're a fan of that

[20:41] < j_baker> Never tried Darwin.

[20:41] < vmlemon_> (many components including those for ACPI are closed source)

[20:41] < j_baker> I've always meant to try it out on my old G5 that I'm not using very much.

[20:42] < vmlemon_> I happen to be a member of a project trying to make a "usable" desktop distribution of Darwin, and it's pretty hard going to get the components we need

[20:42] *** Davbo thinks SUSE has got a lot better

[20:43] < vmlemon_> (so far, they've released several source updates but stopped making ISOs ages ago, and are very slow at providing required binary components)

[20:43] < j_baker> I'm sure you guys have already heard of this, but apparently UK ISPs hate iPlayer... http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080425-who-should-pay-bbc-uk-isps-argue-over-iplayer-traffic.html

[20:44] < MS-> Yeah, the ones that are complaining are, in my opinion, morons

[20:45] < MS-> Because they've advertised "Hey, get unlimited broadband for < X> per month" and "Hey, get all your TV, Films & Music here", and then throttled anyone using P2P excessively

[20:45] < vmlemon_> Tiscali comes to mind

[20:45] < MS-> Then someone comes along with a legal service and people want to use it

[20:45] < vmlemon_> (their stupid £6.49 a month offering, or whatever it is)

[20:45] < MS-> and the ones who offer "unlimited" (which can actually mean a 3Gig download limit per month)

[20:46] < vmlemon_> Which you supposedly can't use after a certain time

[20:46] < MS-> are now screeching because their business model is broken

[20:46] < j_baker> Heh... the fact that News Corp is criticizing iPlayer makes me automatically like it.

[20:47] < vmlemon_> I guess that's why ISPs are moving towards things like Phorm, hoping that they can get some revenue for their poor services

[20:47] < MS-> Whereas companies like plus net are doing stats and showing precisely how much traffic its generating and waving it round saying "this is why we don't offer unlimited and allow your cost to reflect usage"

[20:47] < vmlemon_> I personally think that they should charge a bit more, and offer a decent service

[20:47] < vmlemon_> as stupid as it sounds

[20:47] < MS-> vmlemon_: That's what plus.net do :)

[20:47] < vmlemon_> ("You Get What You Pay For")

[20:47] < MS-> (which is the ISP I use :) )

[20:47] < MS-> heh, yes

[20:48] *** MS- wonders how a GPL product

[20:48] < vmlemon_> I actually found BT's broadband service to be decent, although it would probably suck now, if I was to use it again

[20:48] < MS-> can have an EULA that restricts usage

[20:49] < vmlemon_> http://www.webcitation.org/5Ufqeqeyl - the list of missing components that Apple are dragging their feet on

[20:49] *** MS- starts downloading their vmware image to find out if it includes any code I wrote

[20:49] < vmlemon_> Who?

[20:49] < MS-> (since it's a project I've contributed code to in the past, and then left the community of)

[20:49] < MS-> twiki

[20:49] < vmlemon_> Aah

[20:50] < j_baker> Isn't twiki php?

[20:50] < MS-> perl

[20:50] < vmlemon_> I'd laugh my head off if the EULA claimed that it can't be reverse-engineered

[20:50] < MS-> heh

[20:50] < vmlemon_> or something equally stupid

[20:50] < j_baker> Perl... I suppose it's better than PHP.

[20:50] < vmlemon_> Haha

[20:50] < MS-> It's alot better than PHP

[20:51] < vmlemon_> Yup, they have said that you can't reverse engineer it

[20:51] < vmlemon_> Or rent or sublicense it

[20:51] < vmlemon_> How did I guess?

[20:51] < vmlemon_> And they call it Open Source?

[20:51] < j_baker> Personally, I've grown to love python's syntax. I hate languages that use so many extraneous brackets and other symbols.

[20:52] < MS-> Python's syntax is nice

[20:52] < MS-> Oh so it does say you can't reverse engineer

[20:52] < MS-> how amusing

[20:53] < j_baker> The only thing I can't get used to is having to pass self to each object method and using self in front of any data members.

[20:53] < MS-> Especially given that Twiki itself is derived from Dolphin wiki

[20:53] < vmlemon_> What the hell would you reverse-engineer, in an entirely open source product?

[20:53] < MS-> which was GPL to start off with

[20:53] < vmlemon_> "LICENSEE MAY NOT RENT, LEASE, SUBLICENSE, SELL, ASSIGN, LOAN OR OTHERWISE TRANSFER THE LICENSOR SOFTWARE OR ANY OF LICENSEE’S RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT. Licensee may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Licensor Software or attempt to circumvent any technical restrictions included in the code, except to the extent the foregoing restriction is expressly prohibited by applicable law."

[20:53] < MS-> Mind you, I got locked out of their wiki when they broke the GPL on code I'd given them in the past

[20:53] < vmlemon_> "Licensee may not (i) remove or destroy any copyright notices or other proprietary markings; (ii) modify or adapt the Licensor Software, merge the Licensor Software into another program or create derivative works based on the Licensor Software; or (iii) provide, lease, lend, use for timesharing or service bureau purposes, or otherwise use or allow others to use the Licensor Software for the benefit of third parties (through the Internet or

[20:53] < vmlemon_> otherwise)."

[20:54] < MS-> (the letter of the GPL this is)

[20:54] < vmlemon_> WTF, "Licensee shall hold in the strictest confidence the Licensor Software and any related materials or information including, but not limited to, any technical data, research, product plans or know-how provided by Licensor to Licensee, either directly or indirectly in writing, orally or by inspection of tangible objects"

[20:54] *** vmlemon_ feels like vomiting after reading that...

[20:54] < j_baker> I suppose it's kind of the same thing as what vBulletin does. They've quit calling their software open source and instead refer to it as "visible source"

[20:54] < MS-> (I got upset with them because they broke the code I gave them, they merged it, and then told me to document their broken version which was incompatible with my code)

[20:55] < MS-> They pulled *most* of the code out after that

[20:55] < vmlemon_> Transparent Development, or Sources Available, maybe

[20:55] < MS-> But not everything

[20:55] < vmlemon_> but not Open Source

[20:55] < j_baker> Or "free as in beer"

[20:56] < MS-> Well, the thing is twiki was derived (ie direct code heritage) from dolphin wiki

[20:56] < vmlemon_> I thought that vBulletin obfuscated their source code, after people distributed versions of it without paying for it

[20:56] < MS-> which was GPL

[20:56] < vmlemon_> or was that Invision?

[20:56] < MS-> so if they *are* doing this

[20:56] < MS-> then, um, they're doing something naughty

[20:56] < MS-> *if*

[20:56] < vmlemon_> They've effectively proprietarized(?) a GPL'd codebase :|

[20:56] < MS-> *Maybe*

[20:56] < j_baker> Sounds like the FSF should get an email from someone. :)

[20:57] < MS-> *maybe*

[20:57] < vmlemon_> Interestingly, their Wikipedia article says that the software is GPL'd

[20:57] < j_baker> Yeah, that's what I just noticed.

[20:57] < MS-> I suspect they'd claim this is a dual license

[20:57] < MS-> ala mysql

[20:58] < MS-> Since this isn't the first time the argument has come up

[20:58] < vmlemon_> I wonder if you can reverse-engineer Qt, without Trolltech attacking you

[20:58] < MS-> (It was a large factor in why I forked the codebase many years back to create O'Wiki which I then subsequently threw away)

[20:58] < j_baker> Does Qt come with source code?

[20:58] < vmlemon_> seeing as they dual-license that, with the caveat being that you can't develop closed-source apps with the GPL'd version

[20:58] < vmlemon_> Yes

[20:59] < MS-> After getting sick of the bad code structure

[20:59] < vmlemon_> I think MovableType was "Sources Available"/proprietary, although the whole thing was built in Perl

[21:00] < vmlemon_> they did GPL a version of it recently, though

[21:00] < vmlemon_> "Shared Source", maybe?

[21:00] < j_baker> I think MT has SEVERAL licenses.

[21:02] < vmlemon_> Still, why the hell would you want to stop someone reverse-engineering a product for which you provide source code, anyway?

[21:03] < vmlemon_> I don't think you could derive anything else from it

[21:03] < MS-> Probably thinks his installer adds value

[21:03] < vmlemon_> Unless it happens to include code from other vendors (e.g. as with StarOffice)

[21:03] < MS-> Sad thing is I don't think a 722MB download is going to add any value over the system I put in place 4, or 5 years ago

[21:03] < MS-> which included an installer - which they rejected.

[21:04] < MS-> (and I'd built to simplify sys admin)

[21:04] < vmlemon_> All they do is bulk up what is probably 2MB or less of code with a load of other stuff

[21:04] < MS-> Since I was replicating the content across 5 different sites

[21:04] < vmlemon_> (i.e. a *whole OS* and instances of MySQL and Apache)

[21:05] < MS-> yep - it's a vmware image so it will be something like that

[21:06] < vmlemon_> If I remember correctly, a fresh installation of most Linux distributions varies from 200MB to 1GB+, depending on what's installed

[21:06] *** mhrd_afk has parted #kamaelia

[21:06] < vmlemon_> Probably just over 150MB if you don't include X11 or things which require it

[21:07] < vmlemon_> Although you can get to 80MB or less if you do it properly, and still offer X11

[21:07] < vmlemon_> I'd hate to see them scramble to provide the source code for every single package installed on the VM, to satisfy the GPL, though

[21:10] < MS-> Anyway, I'll see when I've downloaded it

[21:10] < vmlemon_> I see that you're still mentioned on http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/WikiSpam

[21:10] < vmlemon_> in PeterThoeny's post...

[21:10] < vmlemon_> Prolly there for posterity, though

[21:10] < vmlemon_> seeing as it's from 2004

[21:12] < MS-> Oh yes that

[21:13] < MS-> That's when I was taking a private mirror of the site

[21:13] < vmlemon_> Aah

[21:13] < MS-> Not actually illegal

[21:13] < vmlemon_> I guess it comes in handy though

[21:13] < vmlemon_> (the private mirror, that is)

[21:13] < MS-> Well, the thing is I'd contributed a huge amount of content to that wiki you see

[21:14] < MS-> I was the 12th person to register on that wiki back in '99

[21:14] < vmlemon_> Aah

[21:14] < MS-> And hacked on stuff etc

[21:14] < MS-> So it was from my perspective the easiest way to take a copy for myself

[21:14] < MS-> The sort of question that the movemydata people are taking in earnest now

[21:14] < vmlemon_> Cool

[21:15] < vmlemon_> Pardon my lack of knowledge/ignorance, but what is MoveMyData?

[21:15] < MS-> Think of the scenario:

[21:15] < MS-> "I'm hacked off with flickr, but like zoomr, how do I shift *my* photos from here to there"

[21:15] < vmlemon_> Those that don't want their data to be tied to any one site or service provider?

[21:15] < MS-> (I use neither)

[21:16] < MS-> yep

[21:17] *** vmlemon_ guessed that it was itself a service ;)

[21:17] < MS-> I learnt a lot about how *not* to run a project there :)

[21:17] < vmlemon_> Hah

[21:18] *** vmlemon_ was just thinking about what "the world's worst/most uncoordinated Open Source Project" would involve

[21:21] < j_baker> phpBB?

[21:21] < vmlemon_> o.O

[21:22] < vmlemon_> Are they really that bad?

[21:22] < vmlemon_> Not that I've ever been involved with the project itself

[21:22] < j_baker> They used to be. I haven't tried their new version.

[21:22] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[21:22] < j_baker> In terms of security, they were the Microsoft of the open source world.

[21:22] < Davbo> Yay! WLAN

[21:22] < j_baker> A new security vulnerability each month if not each week.

[21:22] < MS-> j_baker: is probably right

[21:22] < vmlemon_> phpBB 3 looks pretty shiny, and they've supposedly cleaned up the security issues in it

[21:23] < vmlemon_> from what I've heard

[21:23] < j_baker> (and not because they were on top of things)

[21:23] *** MS- does something else for a while

[21:23] < vmlemon_> Hi Davbo

[21:23] < j_baker> I've heard that as well vmlemon_

[21:23] < vmlemon_> I have an instance here to test with a Drupal integration module, and it seems OK

[21:24] < j_baker> As much as I hate to pay for it, I really like invision.

[21:24] < j_baker> (fortunately a license was donated to me)

[21:24] < vmlemon_> They once did a free version of Invision ages ago

[21:24] < vmlemon_> I liked it myself, too

[21:25] < j_baker> Yeah. If it wasn't insecure as hell, it would still be nice to get the free invision.

[21:25] < vmlemon_> pMachine looked interesting

[21:25] < vmlemon_> once

[21:25] < vmlemon_> Although it looks as if they aren't doing much in the way of development on it

[21:25] < vmlemon_> (I think it's now "ExpressionEngine" or something like that)

[21:26] < j_baker> SMF is awesome.

[21:26] < j_baker> I hear nothing but good things about Expression Engine.

[21:26] < j_baker> But it's another expensive piece of software.

[21:27] < vmlemon_> I tried it back when it was pMachine (they did a free version of it), and it seemed like a well put together product, although there weren't many 3rd party extensions to it

[21:27] < vmlemon_> I'm not sure if it was more like a discussion forum or more like a CMS/blogging tool though

[21:28] < vmlemon_> (Last time I used it was 2001 or 2002, if I remember correctly)

[21:29] < j_baker> Have you tried pocoo?

[21:29] < vmlemon_> Can't say I've heard of it

[21:29] < j_baker> It's a python forum

[21:30] < j_baker> (using WSGI)

[21:30] < j_baker> I can't seem to find any demo websites though.

[21:30] < vmlemon_> Vanilla was nice, last time I checked, and there was a hack to integrate it with Wordpress

[21:30] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[21:30] < vmlemon_> although it doesn't seem to be very well known or popular, except with a few sites

[21:31] < vmlemon_> (getvanilla.com, if anyone's curious)

[21:31] < vmlemon_> Having a look at Pocoo now

[21:31] < j_baker> MyBB also looks pretty awesome.

[21:33] < j_baker> Pocoo doesn't really seem to be being developed anymore.

[21:33] < vmlemon_> If you don't mind running a Drupal instance as well, the UIEForum extension seems interesting

[21:34] < j_baker> Drupal also works with invision I believe.

[21:35] < vmlemon_> They did decide to make it slightly un-Drupal-like though, in that it's a monolithic extension that does everything that the forum is designed to, and doesn't use certain features

[21:35] < j_baker> I've had some pretty bad interactions with the dev team though.

[21:35] < vmlemon_> There's a SMF module for Drupal, too

[21:35] < vmlemon_> and the phpBB one seems to work well

[21:35] < j_baker> I at one point requested an SMF module (before there was one) and basically got told

[21:36] < j_baker> "Why do you need SMF? Our [shitty] forum is good enough. If you want one, go code it yourself."

[21:36] < vmlemon_> Shame that there isn't a Pocoo test forum

[21:36] < j_baker> [shitty] was added by me. :)

[21:36] < vmlemon_> Hah

[21:36] < j_baker> I think Pocoo is pretty much unmaintained.

[21:37] < vmlemon_> Hrm, it looks like the last version of Vanilla was towards the end of 2007

[21:38] < vmlemon_> (last release was in October)

[21:38] *** j_baker considers coding a kamaelia-ized WSGI forum

[21:38] < j_baker> I really do need more experience with both Kamaelia and WSGI for my project.

[21:41] *** vmlemon_ just had an idea for a YouTube like site based on the BBC Macro stuff

[21:42] < vmlemon_> (it would automatically transcode and list stuff that gets recorded, and allow users to search for and vote for recordings)

[21:43] < Davbo> like iPlayer?

[21:43] < Davbo> I don't see the difference, apart from features perhaps

[21:44] < vmlemon_> I suppose that it could probably be used on a LAN

[21:44] < vmlemon_> if you didn't want to break some law over archival and distribution of content

[21:46] < vmlemon_> I suppose that it would be iPlayer-esque without the gloss, though

[21:46] < vmlemon_> (and the controversy ;) )

[21:46] < j_baker> How do I change my nick on here?

[21:46] < vmlemon_> /nick YourNewNick

[21:47] < j_baker> Sweet.

[21:47] < vmlemon_> I assume that it works on most IRC clients, including Mibbit (although I haven't tested on the latter)

[21:47] *** j_baker is now known as j_baker-work

[21:47] < j_baker-work> Going to work. Later

[21:47] < Davbo> Cya j_baker-work

[21:54] < Davbo> Well i must say, after 2 hours use i much prefer SUSE to Kubuntu

[21:54] < Davbo> for a KDE install at least, not tried SUSE GNOME

[21:54] < Davbo> Ubuntu would be difficult to top for that (IMO)

[22:07] < vmlemon_> Sounds good

[22:08] < Davbo> wow, SoC student mailing list is interesting

[22:08] < Davbo> "I cannot reach google groups as it was forbidden in my country (i am sorry about that), so my question is;"

[22:11] < Davbo> Hmm

[22:12] < Davbo> since the US don't deal/recognise places like N. Korea I wonder what country that individual is writing from

[22:12] < Davbo> China perhaps I suppose

[22:12] < vmlemon_> What about Coral CDN?

[22:12] < vmlemon_> Can't they use that as a workaround?

[22:13] < Davbo> I'd assume so but I don't know the legality of it for them

[22:13] < Davbo> if stuff is blocked presumably they enforce it

[22:13] < vmlemon_> (As I do at the moment to access Google Groups behind Orange's obnoxious censorware/supposedly age sensitive content filter)

[22:13] < Davbo> I guess it's a DNS block so perhaps OpenDNS?

[22:13] < vmlemon_> There's always Tor

[22:14] < vmlemon_> assuming that they can create exit nodes, or even download it

[22:14] < Davbo> Yeah

[22:14] < vmlemon_> or SSHing to another machine

[22:14] < vmlemon_> outside the country

[22:14] < Davbo> Yeah they say it's DNS and someone has pointed them to OpenDNS lol

[22:14] < vmlemon_> I bet that the Chinese ISPs can redirect the DNS traffic going there, anyway

[22:15] < vmlemon_> or poison the traffic in some other way

[22:16] < vmlemon_> Anyone heard about the person in China who was immediately arrested after either making a blog post or sending an e-mail disparaging the Chinese government?

[22:16] < Davbo> Yeah i've heard a few stories like that

[22:16] < vmlemon_> I think it involved Yahoo! somewhere along the line

[22:16] < vmlemon_> (One of their services, I think)

[22:16] < Davbo> It must happen all the time

[22:17] < Davbo> we just don't hear about it, which is scary

[22:17] < vmlemon_> I'd hate to be in Myanmar, or China :(

[22:17] < vmlemon_> I know that things are getting bad for those in Europe and the US, but the Asian situation seems to be taking things to a whole new low

[22:18] < Davbo> You ever used Tor vmlemon_? How slow is it?

[22:19] < vmlemon_> I had an Apache proxy that sent requests for *.onion sites to Tor via Privoxy and handled the rest without going through Tor, and the Tor-based sites weren't exactly fast

[22:20] < Davbo> indeed

[22:20] < Davbo> I imagined it would be rather slow

[22:20] < vmlemon_> although I also had another fairly aggressive caching proxy in between, since connections to the Tor-based sites would sometimes time out and drop

[22:20] < vmlemon_> out

[22:20] < vmlemon_> and things like half loaded pages without graphics often occured

[22:21] < vmlemon_> The Chinese situation even kind of makes things like in-network advertising look benign :(

[22:21] < vmlemon_> (It seems as if the "Send E-Mail" or "Post To Blog" button really means "Send The Police" over there)

[22:22] < Davbo> Yeah.

[22:24] < vmlemon_> What fun, I keep having to pull the cat away from my phone's USB cable so that I don't get disconnected, since it keeps on jumping on the desk and walking around

[22:24] < Davbo> lol :)

[22:26] < Davbo> http://thepiratebay.org/

[22:26] < Davbo> Heh.

[22:26] < vmlemon_> I could use Bluetooth, but it would make the connection even slower

[22:26] < vmlemon_> not to mention that it would drain the battery faster, even with the charger connected

[22:27] < vmlemon_> Shame that no-one has an open Wi-Fi access point, here ;)

[22:27] < vmlemon_> (Everyone's using at least WEP or WPA)

[22:27] < Davbo> We use WEP here

[22:27] < Davbo> Can't use WPA with my nintendo ds

[22:28] < vmlemon_> I once set up an experimental access point as a dead end, just to see how many people would connect

[22:28] < vmlemon_> Since it was configured without encryption and for open access deliberately, I noticed from the Wireshark logs that people kept setting their own routers to unsecured and back temporarily

[22:28] < vmlemon_> and some people even dropped from WPA to WEP

[22:29] < vmlemon_> (Since I happened to have my card in promiscuous monitor mode, and configured as an access point)

[22:29] < Davbo> Ah

[22:30] < Davbo> Did many people connect?

[22:30] < vmlemon_> I found that at least 4 people tried to connect to it, and failed

[22:30] < vmlemon_> (one of them managed to get a VMware local address though, since I set up an intricate system to assign supposedly "host only" addresses)

[22:30] < Davbo> lol

[22:31] < vmlemon_> (which happened to have piggybacked on the host only vmnet interface)

[22:31] < vmlemon_> I found it interesting that a number of people made their network configuration fairly well known that way

[22:31] < vmlemon_> mostly through SMB broadcasts that escaped from people who disabled crypto on their routers and PCs

[22:32] < vmlemon_> for some unknown reason

[22:32] < Davbo> is it WEP Shared mode where it broadcasts every so often?

[22:32] < vmlemon_> Amusingly, after setting the SSID to "Free Internet Access", hardly anyone tried to connect

[22:32] < vmlemon_> until I changed it back to my machine name

[22:32] < Davbo> lol :)

[22:32] < vmlemon_> Yes

[22:33] < Davbo> ironic how "open WEP" is more secure really

[22:33] < vmlemon_> A lot of routers around here are configured to broadcast their SSID

[22:33] < vmlemon_> and it seems as if they produce a lot of spam that way

[22:33] < vmlemon_> (some of them put out hundreds of broadcasts a second)

[22:34] < vmlemon_> Which is quite annoying, since it contributes the bulk of traffic dump files

[22:34] < Davbo> Hah, perhaps you shouldn't always be in promiscuous mode then :P

[22:34] < vmlemon_> (I reckon that I could make my collection of capture files over 100MB smaller just by removing the announcement beacon packets)

[22:35] < vmlemon_> Still, it is interesting to see what's going on "on the air", with regards to things like Wi-Fi and Bluetooth

[22:35] < vmlemon_> in my view

[22:35] < Davbo> Yeah

[22:36] < vmlemon_> I ran a series of Nintendo DS traffic capture experiments a while ago, which made for some fairly interesting dump files

[22:36] < vmlemon_> although I can't find them at the moment :|

[22:36] < Davbo> That EEE-PC (sent with UPS today :( ) looks like it has huge potential "War Driving" capabilities

[22:36] < vmlemon_> If I remember correctly, I had an 80MB dump file from playing a single gaime

[22:36] < vmlemon_> *game

[22:36] < vmlemon_> even

[22:37] < vmlemon_> I'd be interested to see what PSP traffic looks like, that said

[22:37] < vmlemon_> Although I don't have a PSP to test with

[22:38] *** vmlemon_ is reading the BBC R&D pages

[22:38] < vmlemon_> Didn't know they did their R&D in an ex-manor house...

[22:39] < vmlemon_> At least from what I can gather

[22:39] < Davbo> that's just MS- house.

[22:39] < Davbo> ;)

[22:39] < vmlemon_> Hah

[22:40] < vmlemon_> Kamaelia Mansion? ;)

[22:40] < vmlemon_> http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/about/history/previousowners.shtml

[22:42] *** Davbo wonders how many staff are in R&D

[22:43] < vmlemon_> Hmm, "The 1990s must be remembered for start of digital radio and television broadcasting and the launch of the BBC's internet. "

[22:43] < vmlemon_> The BBC have their own parallel Internet? ;)

[22:43] < vmlemon_> Probably explains the weird divide regarding access to the fish box ;)

[22:44] < Davbo> Hah :)

[22:44] < vmlemon_> Unless it means their private LAN/WAN

[22:44] < vmlemon_> or is it the BBC Websites/

[22:44] < vmlemon_> ?

[22:46] < Davbo> Presumably some kinda Intranet

[22:46] < vmlemon_> Aah

[22:46] < vmlemon_> Yay for vague phrasing...

[22:47] < vmlemon_> Hrm, how many times has R&D been split and rejoined, now?

[22:47] < Davbo> :P

[22:48] < vmlemon_> Seems like 3 so far

[22:48] < Davbo> no idea

[22:50] < vmlemon_> Hmm, "In order to receive the MOT library you need to send an email to mot@rd.bbc.co.uk You will need to sign a licence that is designed to ensure that the library remains free to all (subject to some minor restrictions)"

[22:50] *** vmlemon_ wonders if their "minor restrictions" preclude people from using the library in Open Source stuff

[22:51] < vmlemon_> Aah, "Note that the license permits use of the server library for test purposes only - let me know if you want to use it for an operational service. This will probably also be free although I have yet to get this cleared internally."

[22:52] < vmlemon_> (http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/mot/index.shtml)

[22:57] < Davbo> Ah sounds cool

[22:58] < vmlemon_> Essentially a way of sending data over DAB

[22:58] < vmlemon_> There's a similar thing for DVB, too

[22:58] < Davbo> Shame it's in C but I guess they don't have much choice being so low level

[22:58] < vmlemon_> (and there's also a way of wrapping IPv4 in an MPEG-2/DVB Transport Stream)

[22:59] < Davbo> interesting

[22:59] < vmlemon_> Not sure if you need special hardware to make use of it

[22:59] < vmlemon_> I guess it's in C to make it easier to port

[23:00] < vmlemon_> Seeing as they intend for DAB receiver manufacturers to license it for commercial integration into their products

[23:00] < vmlemon_> Hmm, http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/miscellaneous/licensing/legacy-equipment-docs/BBC-MN1_15.pdf

[23:00] < MS-> It'll be old

[23:00] < vmlemon_> No idea what it is, but it looks old and vaguely interesting

[23:01] < MS-> Tristan moved on from R&D a few years ago now

[23:01] < MS-> http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/mot/faqs/index.shtml#1.4

[23:01] < MS-> Though that said other documents there appear to have been updated since

[23:01] < vmlemon_> Aah, so the page is now stale?

[23:02] < MS-> Quite possibly

[23:02] *** vmlemon_ wonders if they'll still provide the library upon request

[23:02] < vmlemon_> I doubt it, though

[23:02] < MS-> "how many times has R&D been split and rejoined, now"

[23:02] < MS-> In the last 3 years, or over time?

[23:02] < MS-> I think they will

[23:03] < vmlemon_> Over time

[23:03] < vmlemon_> (RE that question I asked)

[23:03] < MS-> yep

[23:03] < MS-> Over time, dunno overall

[23:03] < MS-> lots

[23:04] < MS-> frequency has been higher in the past 3 years

[23:04] < MS-> We were R&D, then merged with another group to form "technology group", with our bit relabelled "Research"

[23:04] < MS-> Then that was merged, and merged again

[23:04] < MS-> and now labelled Research & Innovation

[23:05] < MS-> and I've seen another possible change to Innovation and Research

[23:06] < vmlemon_> Innovation, Research and Innovation anyone? ;)

[23:06] < vmlemon_> (Brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department)

[23:06] < MS-> Best description of what we should be doing though is (scarily) a goverment doc:

[23:06] < MS-> http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/assets/files/pdf/regulatory_framework/charter_agreement/bbcagreement_july06.txt

[23:06] < MS-> Specifically section " 87. Research "

[23:07] < MS-> Section 87, paragraph 4, subsection b is my favourite bit ;)

[23:07] < MS-> How sad is that?

[23:07] < MS-> :)

[23:07] *** vmlemon_ wonders how much of the TV license fund goes towards the R&D department (probably not a lot)

[23:08] < Davbo> Wow MS-, what does that mean?

[23:09] < vmlemon_> I wonder why quotation marks are mangled in that document

[23:09] < Davbo> Yeah same here

[23:09] < vmlemon_> (they display as ovals with question marks inside, here)

[23:12] < vmlemon_> Setting the charset to CP1250 "fixes" that, but makes the £ symbol display as the Lira symbol, or something like that

[23:12] < vmlemon_> (Ł)

[23:12] < Davbo> lol

[23:12] < vmlemon_> Although the Copyright symbol displays correctly in that charset

[23:12] < vmlemon_> How strange

[23:13] < MS-> vmlemon_: less than a penny's worth. A lot less.

[23:13] < MS-> (I did the maths once...)

[23:13] < vmlemon_> Hah

[23:13] < vmlemon_> Didn't the Lira die a long time ago to be replaced with the Euro?

[23:14] < vmlemon_> Someone ought to provide versions of the documents with minor niggles like that sorted

[23:14] < MS-> Davbo: It means that when it comes to exploitation that we should consider things like open & proprietary approaches, and make that decision based on what works best for the people who pay the wages

[23:15] < vmlemon_> I think BBC Jam got killed off ages ago, due to some whining textbook publishers, or something like that

[23:15] < Davbo> Also MS-, since i've installed SUSE i actually took some time to have a look at some literature about Novell and that agreement

[23:15] < MS-> It used to be much terser and just say something like "seek to exploit the results for the benefit of the ... using mechanisms *such as* patent letters etc"

[23:15] < vmlemon_> "You agree to sell your soul to Satan upon installation of this software"? ;)

[23:16] < MS-> So it was a change to recognise that there's a lot more approaches, which includes open standardisation and open source

[23:16] *** Davbo is now informed about the subject, not an irrational dislike of Novell

[23:16] < vmlemon_> I assume that they originally sold that document for 11 quid

[23:17] < vmlemon_> at least that's what I assume from the "Cm 6872 £11.00" line

[23:17] < vmlemon_> Almost as good value as Rover was (sold for a fiver, I think)! ;)

[23:19] < MS-> So are you now post-judiced against Novell?

[23:19] < MS-> (post-judice is fine IMO, since it's an informed dislike of something specific ;-) )

[23:20] < Davbo> Oh of course! but at least it's not irrational ;)

[23:20] < MS-> BTW, where possible, I'd appreciate it if people could refrain from private mails and send mails to the (new whizzy, shiny, complete with cat) google group/list if possible :)

[23:21] < MS-> It's possible I'll lose mails offlist :)

[23:21] < vmlemon_> I'm sure that they actually make some decent products, ignoring the Microsoft related side of things

[23:22] < vmlemon_> Although I've only ever tried NetWare

[23:22] < Davbo> Well, if you look back vmlemon_ they've done tons of good stuff for OSS

[23:22] < vmlemon_> True

[23:23] < vmlemon_> And I think they have a fair number of KDE and Linux kernel contributions under their belt, not forgetting iFolder and Banshee (although I personally prefer Amarok)

[23:24] < Davbo> Yeah they have employee's on loads of projects full time afaik

[23:24] < vmlemon_> I haven't tried SuSE, so I can't really give an opinion on it

[23:24] < Davbo> it was my first distro :)

[23:25] < Davbo> like I said before: my decision was based off the logo

[23:26] < vmlemon_> Always the best way

[23:26] < vmlemon_> ;)

[23:26] < Davbo> hehe :D

[23:26] < Davbo> I mean, what's up with all that orange on Ubuntu :P

[23:26] < vmlemon_> If the logo sucks, the product probably does ;)

[23:27] < vmlemon_> "Poobuntu" immediately came to mind, first time I ever tried it ;)

[23:27] < vmlemon_> (Given that the theme was predominantly brown in older versions, before they started adding orange)

[23:28] < Davbo> Yeah

[23:28] < Davbo> I like the marketing campaign they had in the past though lol

[23:29] < vmlemon_> o.O http://www.freemagenta.nl/?page_id=121

[23:29] < Davbo> Naked woman as the desktop wallpaper

[23:29] < Davbo> Shuttleworth obviously decided his market early into the game

[23:30] < Davbo> vmlemon_: did you hear the controversy with T-mobile and Engadget mobiles site?

[23:30] < vmlemon_> Yes

[23:30] < vmlemon_> And they changed the logo to EngageT-Mobile

[23:30] < vmlemon_> temporarily

[23:31] < vmlemon_> o.O "Lava graphic design has successfully claimed 743 colours especially for you. So hurry up! You personal colour is within arms reach."

[23:31] < MS-> um, claiming the *colour* magenta ?

[23:31] < Davbo> Yep!

[23:31] < MS-> sigh

[23:32] *** Davbo claims green

[23:32] < Davbo> it's mine!

[23:32] *** MS- considers a landgrab for purple

[23:32] < Davbo> get off it SUSE! *poke*

[23:32] < Davbo> ;)

[23:32] < vmlemon_> I used to call them Barbie Mobile and T-Bag

[23:32] < Davbo> (http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/31/deutsche-telekom-t-mobile-demands-engadget-mobile-discontinue/)

[23:33] < vmlemon_> Hah, http://www.freemagenta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/blue-panther.jpg and http://www.freemagenta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/cannot.jpg

[23:35] < vmlemon_> http://www.freemagenta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/merkwaaier.jpg

[23:35] < vmlemon_> "No Fly Zone, Claimed by: T-Mobile"

[23:36] < vmlemon_> Pre-solved Rubik's Cube? http://www.freemagenta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/rubik.jpg

[23:36] < Davbo> hehe :)

[23:39] < vmlemon_> o.O http://www.freemagenta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/magentamatrix.gif

[23:41] < vmlemon_> Aww, http://www.freemagenta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/tmobilebears.jpg

[23:45] < MS-> Gosh. I think that means I won't use t-mobile

[23:45] < MS-> Just read the letter they sent to engadget

[23:45] < MS-> beggars belief

[23:45] < Davbo> Tesco value mobile ftw :)

[23:45] < vmlemon_> Yay for 3

[23:46] < Davbo> the sim card even has that "tesco value" look to it hehe

[23:46] < vmlemon_> and they had pandas

[23:46] < MS-> heh

[23:47] < Davbo> hmm, i seem to have a different version of kwrite

[23:47] *** vmlemon_ wonders how long a Tesco Value Supermarket would last before it disintegrates (it'd probably be built from soggy cardboard) ;)

[23:48] < Davbo> Hehe

[23:48] < vmlemon_> Tesco Value Linux? ;)

[23:48] < Davbo> "Even more free!"

[23:49] < vmlemon_> Hrm, Tesco Value Windows Vista?

[23:49] < vmlemon_> The CD probably crumbles the second you look at it

[23:49] < MS-> Well, they do tesco value webcams

[23:49] < MS-> etc

[23:49] < MS-> so why not?

[23:50] < vmlemon_> Hmm, good point

[23:50] < vmlemon_> Seen the Tesco Office package?

[23:50] < vmlemon_> (It's a rebranded version of another product)

[23:51] < vmlemon_> It's supposedly had good reviews from what I've read, although I've never seen it

[23:51] < vmlemon_> http://www.tescosoftware.com/ has more

[23:51] < vmlemon_> Surprisingly

[23:52] < MS-> I've seen it on the shelf in tesco...

[23:52] < MS-> (shockingly)

[23:52] < vmlemon_> It seems like an unlikely area for a supermarket chain to branch into

[23:53] < MS-> Well, they're hardly just a supermarket anymore

[23:53] < vmlemon_> Is there anything supermarkets don't sell these days?

[23:53] < MS-> clothes, DIY equipment, paint, art & crafts, shoes, software, consoles, games, DVDs, etc

[23:53] < MS-> I've not seen porn in there :)

[23:53] < vmlemon_> Insurance and credit cards?

[23:53] < MS-> Not that I recall anyway :)

[23:54] < MS-> No, they do those

[23:54] < MS-> I always get holiday insurance there now

[23:54] < Davbo> Anyone know what their Office suite is?

[23:54] Reply: Hm?

[23:54] < MS-> since I always forget and get it at the last minute since there's virtually always one near you

[23:54] < vmlemon_> o.O "19. When I try to scan my computer with Tesco Antivirus & Antispyware , blue screen errors occur. How can I resolve this?"

[23:54] < MS-> My guess is open office rebranded

[23:55] < vmlemon_> http://www.tescosoftware.com/officeinfo.php

[23:55] < vmlemon_> It's rebranded Ability Office, as far as I know

[23:55] < vmlemon_> (Which itself is a rebranded version of another product)

[23:56] < Davbo> Yeah, you're right

[23:56] < vmlemon_> o.O "Lag: 666 ms"

[23:57] < MS-> ah

[23:57] < Davbo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ability_Office

[23:58] < vmlemon_> Or Disability Office, as me and some others jokingly called it, ages ago