[00:00] < Davbo> I had a look at a few more and couldn't find one offering all that WebFaction were

[00:00] < j_baker> Yeah. I'm leaning more towards them.

[00:00] < Davbo> It sounds like they really don't mind what you do (within reason)

[00:00] < j_baker> As nice as it would be, I don't really NEED a VPS.

[00:01] < Davbo> Hehehe :)

[00:02] < Davbo> I've thought about it in the past but I wanted one for all the wrong reasons (seedbox)

[00:03] < Davbo> god knows what I would have ended up doing if i bought that

[00:03] < Chong-> This topic is interesting:-)

[00:03] < j_baker> seedbox?

[00:04] < j_baker> Oh.

[00:04] < j_baker> Google is my friend. :)

[00:04] < Chong-> But I have to got to bed now for tomorrow's early lab.

[00:04] < Davbo> idd. I've reformed now though :p

[00:05] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[00:05] < j_baker> Grrr.....

[00:05] < Davbo> hehe Chong-, night :)

[00:05] < Chong-> See you, Davbo and j_baker.

[00:05] < j_baker> later

[00:05] *** Chong- has parted #kamaelia

[00:05] < Davbo> < Davbo> idd. I've reformed now though :p

[00:06] < j_baker> Lol... I haven't... :)

[00:06] < j_baker> All I really torrent nowadays is TV shows.

[00:06] < j_baker> I only watch two shows and I believe cable is evil.

[00:09] < Davbo> Heh, well now I see bands live quite often and get all my games off steam

[00:09] < Davbo> There isn't any excuse really for me so, meh.

[00:09] < j_baker> I use amiestreet for music.

[00:10] < j_baker> I don't have any problem pirating corporate music if necessary though.

[06:51] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[06:51] < vmlemon_> Hi

[06:52] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: dance

[06:52] Reply: does the macarena

[06:56] *** bcarlyon|ubuntu has joined #kamaelia

[06:58] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[07:11] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: ecky

[07:11] Reply: Ptang!

[07:12] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: boo

[07:12] Reply: Nice try, but that didn't scare me

[07:13] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: poke

[07:13] Reply: Not the eye! Not the eye!

[07:29] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[07:29] < vmlemon_> Anyone got kamaeliabot's eye yet?

[08:00] *** Lawouach_ has joined #kamaelia

[08:01] < Lawouach_> heya

[08:02] < vmlemon> Hi Lawouach_

[08:03] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> morning

[08:07] < vmlemon> Hah, http://www.catb.org/~esr/intercal/

[08:31] *** MS- is now known as ms-away

[08:31] < ms-away> (greetings)

[08:32] *** mhrd rolls his eyes

[08:32] < mhrd> not intercal again? :-)

[08:37] < ms-away> mhrd: could've been worse

[08:37] < ms-away> could've been java

[08:38] < mhrd> ;-)

[09:49] *** orphans has joined #kamaelia

[09:51] < orphans> morning all

[09:53] < vmlemon> Hi orphans

[10:12] *** ms-away is now known as ms-

[10:13] < orphans> hey ms-

[10:13] < ms-> heya

[10:13] < orphans> hows it going?

[10:13] < ms-> good.

[10:14] < ms-> How did the exam go?

[10:14] < orphans> yeah, it was fine

[10:14] < orphans> got in and I couldn't answer the first question, but from there on in I was OK

[10:17] < orphans> ms-, where do you want the sourceforge/time info sending - cerenity (although I'm still not sure if my gmail likes it)/gmail/sourceforge/googlegroups (if that exists yet)

[10:18] < orphans> or just sticking up here for the logs to archive :)

[10:19] < ms-> preferably kamaelia-list@lists

[10:19] < vmlemon> Hah, http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/free_software_and_gadgets_world_beautiful_broken_toys

[10:19] < orphans> k - I'll get it off now

[11:26] *** bcarlyon|nub has joined #kamaelia

[11:29] < vmlemon> Hi bcarlyon|nub

[11:33] < bcarlyon|nub> hi vmlemon

[11:34] *** bcarlyon|nub is now known as bcarlyon|laptop

[11:44] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> Vista + blue screen of death = restart.....

[11:45] < vmlemon> Ouch, "(F) Platform Limitation- The licenses granted in sections 2(A) & 2(B) extend only to the software or derivative works that you create that run on a Microsoft Windows operating system product."

[11:45] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> hmm

[11:52] < Lawouach_> burp

[11:52] < ms-> ?

[11:52] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> excuse you Lawouach_

[12:04] < Lawouach_> :)

[12:04] < Lawouach_> French are so disgusting, aren't they?

[12:19] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> My surname is French....

[12:24] *** bcarlyon|nub has joined #kamaelia

[12:25] < Lawouach_> bcarlyon|nub: so is mine :)

[12:25] < Lawouach_> Well technically it's Breton but well

[12:25] *** bcarlyon|nub is now known as bcarlyon|laptop

[12:25] < ms-> Mine isn't :)

[12:25] < bcarlyon|laptop> why are the french disgusting?

[12:26] < ms-> But I don't think the french have a monopoly on disgusting :-D

[12:26] < Lawouach_> bcarlyon|laptop: I don't think they are but I was amused that I often her that statement in the UK. Granted friends who tried to wind me up :)

[12:26] < bcarlyon|laptop> ha

[12:27] < Lawouach_> s/her/heard

[12:27] < Lawouach_> damn irssi on a remote server can be slow

[12:27] < bcarlyon|laptop> agreed

[12:27] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> tho it is not too bad on a box under your desk.....

[12:29] < Lawouach_> :)

[12:32] < orphans> hey Lawouach, bcarlyon|laptop

[12:34] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> orphans :-)

[12:34] < orphans> heh, you all have far too many nicks going on for me to ever get the right one

[12:35] < bcarlyon|laptop> haha

[12:35] < bcarlyon|laptop> should be three

[12:35] *** bcarlyon|laptop looks for bcarlyon|ubuntu

[12:36] < bcarlyon|laptop> home, office, on the move.....

[12:38] < orphans> :) - don't have an office and I don't often move much further than the nearest pub

[12:38] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> lol

[12:39] < vmlemon> Hah, "My challenge to them was to make Linux look BETTER in SMS than Windows does. We.ll try to make Windows more manageable by adding more, not by restricting."

[12:41] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> windows more manageable....good luck

[12:44] < vmlemon> Would be strange for them to favour Linux over their own junk, somehow

[12:46] *** bcarlyon|lsrfm is not quite sure what vmlemon is on about.....

[12:47] < vmlemon> kamaeliabot: dance

[12:47] Reply: does the macarena

[12:50] < orphans> off to windowsland, biab

[13:59] *** bcarlyon|nub has joined #kamaelia

[14:14] *** bcarlyon|nub is now known as bcarlyon|laptop

[14:46] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[14:46] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: boo

[14:46] Reply: Nice try, but that didn't scare me

[14:47] *** vmlemon_ wonders what's happening with Dirac, these days

[14:47] < ms-> It's getting towards version 1.0 release

[14:48] < ms-> A subset of it has been standardised as Dirac Pro

[14:48] < ms-> (kinda equivalent to I-Frame based MPEG)

[14:48] < ms-> That's also been standardised through SMPTE as VC2

[14:48] < ms-> (VC1 being essentially Windows Media...)

[14:49] < ms-> There's also work on a faster C-based + assembler optimisations being worked on

[14:49] < ms-> which has recently hit release stage

[14:49] < ms-> called schroedinger

[14:49] < mhrd> iirc full dirac is prety much standardised - but as ms- says they're still tidying up

[14:49] < vmlemon_> Any ideas on performance? Or is it still supposedly extremely slow to decode and encode?

[14:49] < ms-> As a result dirac is participating in GSOC with Schro

[14:49] < ms-> schroe is intended to be the produce version

[14:50] < ms-> s/produce/production

[14:50] *** bcarlyon|nub has joined #kamaelia

[14:50] < bcarlyon|nub> Boo!

[14:50] *** bcarlyon|nub is now known as bcarlyon|laptop

[14:50] < ms-> vmlemon_: as a result http://www.diracvideo.org/wiki/GSoC2008Ideas gives an idea of what's up/wanted

[14:50] < ms-> http://code.google.com/soc/2008/dirac/about.html gives specifics on 2 bits of work ;)

[14:52] < vmlemon_> Hence the GSoC project being named "BBC Research" and not "Kamaelia" (despite there being seemingly more people interested in Kamaelia)?

[14:53] < ms-> The GSOC Project is named BBC Research because every year I try and get other people who run BBC Open Source projects interested in GSOC

[14:53] < ms-> First year Dirac were vaguely interested

[14:53] < vmlemon_> Aah, cool

[14:53] < ms-> Second year they didn't want to, until we saw some apps coming in and I convinced them

[14:53] < ms-> this year the dirac people really wanted to participate as far as I can tell :)

[14:54] < ms-> Sadly no other projects wanted to get involved this year as far as I can tell

[14:54] < ms-> There are almost always more Kamaelia people than dirac though because I go out pimping for business

[14:55] < ms-> Also, it's easier (for example) for someone to pitch image editing or music composition or < something random> with us

[14:55] < vmlemon_> and it's probably neater/easier from a Google/BBC admin viewpoint to have everyone "marching under the same banner", I assume...

[14:55] < ms-> than it is to work on motion estimation

[14:56] < ms-> Indeed. Also, it's good PR each way. But it's also (more importantly) good from a practical perspective

[14:59] < vmlemon_> There's always the forgotten and under-represented projects (e.g. Ingex and Media Dispatch)...

[15:00] < vmlemon_> if it's even called that ;)

[15:00] < ms-> Well, I think there's 3 kinds of projects on /opensource

[15:00] < ms-> a) Ones that try to actively make their stuff useful outside the BBC as well as inside (since it's also a good way of getting back in in unexpected locations)

[15:01] < vmlemon_> Living, dying and dead/forgotten? ;)

[15:01] < ms-> b) Ones that put their stuff out there and actively maintain it, but don't really tout for business in anyway

[15:01] < ms-> c) dying/dead/forgotten/unmaintained (either through lack of resource or lack of thought)

[15:02] < ms-> a) is divided into two sets of projects as well i) those with time allocated to them ii) those not allocated time to them

[15:02] < ms-> a.ii) tends to steal time or work outside normal hours

[15:02] < ms-> Dirac falls under a.i, Kamaelia under a.ii

[15:02] < ms-> (at present)

[15:02] < ms-> Though based on conversations with someone setting up a RAD group

[15:03] < ms-> and the P2P next project

[15:03] < ms-> that could change to a.i :-)

[15:03] *** vmlemon_ wonders how much red-tape has to be dealt with before a project can be released

[15:03] < ms-> Varies

[15:03] < ms-> depends on who you ask and how

[15:03] < ms-> Kamaelia took 9 months to get released

[15:03] < ms-> 9 months of pain & beurocracy

[15:04] < vmlemon_> Ouch

[15:05] < vmlemon_> I'd hate to think of how many times they rejected it, before caving in :(

[15:05] < mhrd> you're assuming it was possible to have a dialogue :-)

[15:06] < ms-> vmlemon_: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/msg06941.html

[15:06] < mhrd> there are things more frustrating than being rejected :)

[15:06] < ms-> Went through... around 20 managers

[15:06] < ms-> mhrd: indeed

[15:06] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[15:06] < ms-> Does mean though that it is *very* justified in being out there ;)

[15:07] < ms-> I wrote that mail to the backstage list because I know various BBC people watch that list and may appreciate the informatin

[15:08] < ms-> There's a project I'm working on at present though which has very little code, which I've asked permission to basically use google code to do the sharing between me & a contractor

[15:08] < vmlemon_> You and Matt obviously did a stellar job, if it managed to penetrate that many layers of management

[15:08] < ms-> I asked it in passing and got quick approval for it :)

[15:09] < mhrd> I had very little, in fact pretty much zero, part in it

[15:09] *** ms- recounts

[15:09] < vmlemon_> aah

[15:09] < mhrd> the stellarity is solely ms-'s

[15:10] < ms-> 2 RL, 1 GH, 1 CS, 1PM, 2BM, 12HoT, 3(random)M

[15:10] < vmlemon_> Hah, I assumed that you did a lot of work on the codebase prior to release, hence the mention

[15:10] < mhrd> iirc I joined at about the time of release.

[15:10] < ms-> Matt joined after release.

[15:10] < vmlemon_> I see

[15:11] < ms-> No, you're right around time of release

[15:11] < ms-> between me asking for release & getting release :)

[15:11] < mhrd> ms-: heh: I can guess RL, PM, HoT and M but can't figure the rest :)

[15:11] < ms-> G=group

[15:11] < vmlemon_> Deja vu? ;)

[15:11] < ms-> C=Ian C

[15:12] < mhrd> k

[15:12] < ms-> P=Project (Tim :) -- ie rubber stamp support :) )

[15:12] < ms-> B=business

[15:12] < ms-> I got *very* used to coming up with arguments and rationales about why release was a good idea

[15:13] < ms-> that had everything to do with evidence and facts and very little to do with belief

[15:13] < ms-> (ie more science than religion)

[15:13] < vmlemon_> "...and it's got a cat" - the only reason you need ;)

[15:13] < ms-> heh

[15:14] < vmlemon_> Wasn't that the original project slogan?

[15:14] < ms-> heh. It might well've been actually

[15:14] < vmlemon_> Or something like that

[15:15] < ms-> The website needs a complete overhaul really

[15:15] < ms-> at least in terms of look/navigation/editting

[15:15] < ms-> Content is pretty good

[15:16] < vmlemon_> Short of adding a search function and fixing the odd dead link, I don't see a problem with the current one

[15:17] < ms-> Ah, no - http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/trunk/Website/index.html?revision=6&view=markup . Yes, that description was a direct copy & paste of the description I'd been auth'd to use/talk about it

[15:19] < Davbo> Afternoon all

[15:19] < ms-> Davbo: afternoon

[15:19] < vmlemon_> Hi Davbo

[15:21] < Lawouach_> ms-: have you ever considered going with Django or maybe just using Plone for instance

[15:21] *** Davbo agree's some parts of the site need an overhaul

[15:21] < Lawouach_> That'd mean again leaving SF though

[15:22] < Lawouach_> The point being, Plone or even Django are quite suited for document oriented websites

[15:22] < ms-> Lawouach_: Not particularly - The code which runs the kamaelia site is actually pretty flexible, though constrained by the fact it's sourceforge

[15:22] < Lawouach_> Or maybe just a better wiki such as DokuWiki ?

[15:23] < ms-> I've been interested in wikis for a long time now, and it's actually a bunch of ideas I've put together

[15:23] < Lawouach_> DokuWiki is actually very good at documentation

[15:23] < Lawouach_> IMO

[15:23] < Lawouach_> I had done a survey for personal reasons a while ago and it was my fave

[15:24] < Lawouach_> That being said, you might need something simpler

[15:24] < ms-> I hacked on the TWiki codebase for a long while

[15:24] < ms-> even forked the codebase

[15:25] < ms-> But some of the core ideas live on in the wiki up on sourceforge at presnet

[15:25] < vmlemon_> Hmm, integrating the bot and the wiki/site could be interesting

[15:25] < Lawouach_> Well that's nice to fork and all when you have the spare time for it. Otherwise just use something good :) A bit like recompiling your own Linux kernel. It was sweet 10 years ago when I started Linux, nowadays I couldn't bear the idea of wasting time on it

[15:25] < ms-> I'm *tempted* to move it over to 132.185.142.2

[15:25] < ms-> Lawouach_: Indeed :)

[15:25] < mhrd> 132.185.142.2 already does the autogenerated documentation rebuilds, so why not

[15:25] < vmlemon_> the fish box? ;)

[15:26] < mhrd> its a very useful fish box :)

[15:26] < ms-> vmlemon_: one of the fish boxes :)

[15:26] < ms-> I can think of at least 3 machines that give that message :)

[15:26] < ms-> :)

[15:26] *** mhrd finds the 3rd :)

[15:27] < ms-> Lawouach_: The problem with that wiki really is actually sourceforge related, hence mooting the idea of shifting it off to somewhere else

[15:27] < vmlemon_> Is it always the same fish dish?

[15:27] < ms-> vmlemon_: yep

[15:28] < Lawouach_> ms-: That would do the project some good :)

[15:29] < vmlemon_> Which box always gave "Coming Soon..."? The Macro box?

[15:29] < ms-> The box I'm pondering though is actually in a wierd location network wise, unless the thing's been fixed.

[15:29] < ms-> vmlemon_: yep

[15:29] < ms-> Makes alot of sense

[15:29] < ms-> http://bbc.kamaelia.org/

[15:31] < mhrd> doesn't look like its been fixed

[15:31] < vmlemon_> "Coming Never... (Unless You're On The BBC's Payroll)" ;)

[15:31] < ms-> mhrd: hm

[15:31] < ms-> So we have a box we can use, that no-one *inside* the BBC can get at

[15:32] < Lawouach_> go and kick some administrator's arse :)

[15:32] < ms-> at least not the average person anyway

[15:32] < mhrd> tried that

[15:32] < mhrd> the administrator in question, unfortunately, is outsourced

[15:32] < ms-> Well, actually

[15:32] < ms-> You could actually blame the person who gave us that address as well

[15:33] < ms-> But hey, life's too short

[15:35] < ms-> Could always ask to get a different IP address/range

[15:36] < Davbo> code.google give you a wiki right?

[15:36] < Davbo> that any good?

[15:36] < vmlemon_> They have storage limits

[15:37] < Davbo> I'm sure ms- can have a word with Chris DiBona :p

[15:37] < vmlemon_> probably too low for Kamaelia

[15:37] < ms-> Davbo: Not really want I want really. It's a nice idea, but less than idea

[15:37] < ms-> less than ideal

[15:38] < Davbo> Ah, oh well

[15:38] < ms-> I'll have a ponder

[15:38] < ms-> We could make that machine the main place for editting stuff and updating

[15:38] < ms-> and where anything happens when you hit "edit"

[15:38] < ms-> and have the changes there shifted off to sourceforge

[15:39] < ms-> which gives the best of both worlds

[15:39] < vmlemon_> What about Wikia? Although they only do wiki hosting

[15:39] < ms-> It's more the integration thing I'm after.

[15:40] < vmlemon_> Good point

[15:40] < ms-> Whilst the pages you see on the website look simple, they do things like take autogenerated docs and integrate them

[15:40] < ms-> Similarly the wiki engine has a number of directives that could be used

[15:40] < vmlemon_> Short of getting shared/dedicated hosting with shell access

[15:40] < ms-> It also has page tags, but due to sourceforge being a PITA that can't be used

[15:41] < ms-> Neither can openid be used on sourceforge, which is silly, due to restrictions on the hosting

[15:41] < ms-> For serving, it's also slow

[15:41] < mhrd> reference docs for axon and kamaelia are a tree of html docs that are generated and uploaded. With the present arrangement they blend relatively seamlessly into the rest of the site which is nice

[15:41] < ms-> (sourceforge that is)

[15:45] *** vmlemon_ wonders why most "canned project hosts" suck in some way

[15:47] < ms-> Well, sourceforge used to be better

[15:47] < ms-> You used to be able to make external web requests from cgi's and also be able to send mails, as well as able to use storage sensibly

[15:47] < ms-> The restrictions have been added and put in place as the facilities got abused

[15:48] < ms-> I'm guessing code.google's restrictions are there simply to deal with scaling issues

[15:48] < ms-> esp since I get check in errors there whereas I don't with sourceforge

[15:48] < ms-> (which is an interesting oddity)

[15:49] *** orphans has joined #kamaelia

[15:49] < Lawouach_> I think code.google would be a good fallback overall if you can't be bothered or don't have too much time right now.

[15:49] *** ms- nods

[15:49] < Lawouach_> The restrictions would be easily bypassed by asking them

[15:50] < Lawouach_> They know the project history

[15:50] < Lawouach_> They know you're not trying to spam

[15:50] < Lawouach_> So I'm sure they'd be willing to give you more storage

[15:50] < vmlemon_> I guess SourceForge are usually chosen for their cache/level of popularity ("a thousand flies can't be wrong")...

[15:50] < vmlemon_> *cachet

[15:50] < Lawouach_> My only concer with google code is their wiki. It looks limited

[15:51] < Lawouach_> vmlemon_: I think it's more the fact that a few years back there was nothing out there to compete

[15:51] < Lawouach_> But they've been sucking balls for quite some time now

[15:51] < Lawouach_> It's as-is no one was even monitoring the servers anymore.

[15:52] < vmlemon_> I suppose there's BerliOS, although I know little about them

[15:52] < Lawouach_> Mind you 6 years back I put my hands on some of the code bhind SF (it used to be open) and it wasn't pretty

[15:53] < orphans> hey all

[15:53] < vmlemon_> Hi orphans

[15:53] < ms-> Lawouach_: Yep, gforge kinda carries it on

[15:54] < vmlemon_> Don't they sell the SourceForge software in a so-called "enterprise" version?

[15:55] < vmlemon_> Or did last time I looked

[15:55] < Lawouach_> They do, or at least they did.

[15:55] < Lawouach_> Dunno if that worked out;

[15:55] < Lawouach_> still crap :)

[15:57] < Lawouach_> webfaction is a great webhost again

[15:57] < Lawouach_> if you've got a bit of cash :)

[15:59] < vmlemon_> I suppose there's always good, old-fashioned home hosting, although reliability will probably plummet...

[15:59] < ms-> vmlemon_: Someone at work is looking at that ......

[15:59] < ms-> (sf enterprise edition)

[16:01] < vmlemon_> JIRA and Confluence looked interesting, last time I saw them

[16:02] < vmlemon_> There's always Jazz, too (only masochists and those looking for a challenge need apply)

[16:03] < vmlemon_> ;)

[16:04] < vmlemon_> Although that's presumably why they make Gentoo, too ;)

[16:06] *** mhrd is now known as mhrd_afk

[16:07] < ms-> Hate confluence

[16:07] < ms-> It's a CMS, not a wiki

[16:07] < ms-> not even a very good cms at that

[16:07] < vmlemon_> I always thought it sounded like a disease

[16:08] < ms-> heh

[16:11] *** vmlemon_ ponders "What if Microsoft built Ladas?"...

[16:11] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[16:11] < Davbo> "I just found out I have confluence, you might want to get yourself checked out"

[16:11] < vmlemon_> Hi j_baker

[16:11] < j_baker> hello

[16:11] < Davbo> :p

[16:11] < Davbo> hi j_baker

[16:11] < vmlemon_> Haha

[16:12] < j_baker> So I signed up with WebFaction.

[16:12] < j_baker> I'm still waiting on my account to be set up.

[16:13] < vmlemon_> Don't mosquitoes cause it?

[16:13] < ms-> vmlemon_: heh

[16:15] < vmlemon_> Did WebFaction want payment in advance?

[16:15] < j_baker> For the first month.

[16:15] < j_baker> Once I get my first GSoC payment in, I'll probably pay a year or so in advance.

[16:16] *** vmlemon_ wonders if Heart Internet's hosting is any good, seeing as he registered a domain name with them...

[16:17] < vmlemon_> (They had a 5p renewal offer or something like that)

[16:18] < j_baker> Regarding the SF vs. GoogleCode, I have some webspace I can use to set up an SVN repository that I'd be willing to donate if that helps. About how big is the repository?

[16:19] < ms-> Nah, there isn't a problem - but thanks for the offer :-)

[16:19] < j_baker> np :)

[16:19] < ms-> It's more "is it an opportunity" really :)

[16:20] < j_baker> I personally don't have a problem with the SF site (except for the mailing list).

[16:22] < ms-> indeed

[16:22] *** Davbo echo's what j_baker said

[16:26] < j_baker> So who here already has a blog set up for their project? I'd like to get my blogroll set up.

[16:26] < vmlemon_> You could add YeOC

[16:27] < orphans> j_baker, really should do that - where is yours at?

[16:27] < Davbo> http://www.davbo.org/blog/

[16:27] < j_baker> www.coderspalace.com/j_baker

[16:27] < vmlemon_> Seeing as it relates somewhat to Kamaelia

[16:28] < j_baker> Indeed, vmlemon_

[16:28] < Davbo> Heh "The blog for the most awesome GSoC project ever." :P

[16:29] *** vmlemon_ has a blog with very little content other than some test posts and an announcement for an unrelated project...

[16:30] < j_baker> That's right, and don't you forget it.

[16:31] < vmlemon_> Tested it on the Awesome-o-Meter (R)? ;)

[16:32] < j_baker> I don't need the Awesome-o-Meter. I already know it's awesome.

[16:32] < j_baker> :P

[16:32] < vmlemon_> Hah

[16:32] < orphans> will wordpress do the trick?

[16:33] < vmlemon_> Of course

[16:33] < j_baker> IMO, wordpress is the best option if you just want a blog.

[16:33] < j_baker> It's mindlessly simple to set up and use.

[16:33] < orphans> I'm sold :)

[16:33] < orphans> mindlessly simple pretty much describes me in two word :D

[16:34] < vmlemon_> Or MovableType, Vox or Blogger, if it's your bag

[16:34] < Davbo> j_baker, you can add yourself to planet-soc

[16:34] < Davbo> my blog is up there

[16:36] < j_baker> Will do.

[16:36] < orphans> ahh, lovely wordpress echoing my password plain text to me

[16:51] < Davbo> http://planet-soc.com/organization/BBC+Research/planet

[16:51] < Davbo> that's the website run by webchick in #gsoc

[16:56] < Davbo> Ah, "sudo apt-get kubuntu-desktop" might take a while evidently

[17:07] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[17:07] < Davbo> ms-, just installed KDE and got Whiteboard working properly now

[17:07] < vmlemon_> Yay

[17:07] < Davbo> Must have been all that Compiz stuff

[17:08] < Davbo> :)

[17:08] *** vmlemon_ wonders why no OSes/Linux distributions package Kamaelia

[17:10] < Davbo> hmm does KDE 4 use Dolphin?

[17:10] < vmlemon_> Konqueror is still there

[17:10] < vmlemon_> Dolphin is the new default, though

[17:11] *** vmlemon_ prefers Konqueror

[17:12] < Davbo> me too, i'll try to use Dolphin for a while though

[17:13] < Davbo> Actually I can see myself using this

[17:13] < Davbo> icons are too big by default though

[17:14] < Davbo> Amarok running 10x better on here too.

[17:14] *** Davbo is happy with the move, for now :)

[17:15] < vmlemon_> It's too over-simplified and single-functional for me...

[17:15] < vmlemon_> Amarok 2 looks promising, though

[17:17] < Davbo> Yeah

[17:19] < vmlemon_> Yay, the weather is decent for once, here

[17:19] < Davbo> Same :)

[17:19] < Davbo> off to get something to eat

[17:19] < Davbo> back later

[17:21] < vmlemon_> (Nice breeze, sunny but not too hot, and a fairly clear sky)

[17:22] < orphans> http://cowallpaper.wordpress.com/

[17:23] *** orphans is also off for food

[17:25] < j_baker> heh... carbon monoxide wallpaper... I like it.

[17:25] *** j_baker joins the bandwagon and grabs some lunch.

[17:25] *** j_baker has parted #kamaelia

[17:28] < vmlemon_> cow-allpaper?

[18:28] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[18:43] *** Uraeus has joined #kamaelia

[19:10] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[19:11] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: dance

[19:11] Reply: does the macarena

[19:16] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[19:17] *** Chong- has joined #kamaelia

[19:17] < Chong-> evening, eveyone.

[19:22] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[19:23] < vmlemon_> Hi

[19:25] < Davbo> Hello :)

[19:27] < Davbo> KDE is reminding me how much i prefer Kate to Gedit

[19:28] < Davbo> no competition

[19:28] *** vmlemon_ is playing with Windows PowerShell, and various UNIX utility ports on Windows Server 2003

[19:29] < vmlemon_> KDE 4?

[19:29] < Davbo> nah

[19:29] < Davbo> I'll download and install the new version of Kubuntu when it gets released tomorrow i think

[19:31] < Davbo> Was thinking about trying openSUSE again, but Novell just really annoys me

[19:32] < vmlemon_> I'm surprised that it includes a 'more' command, but not a 'less' or 'grep' one

[19:32] < Davbo> You can't grep? what kinda shell is it? :P

[19:33] < vmlemon_> No idea, probably Microsoft don't believe in grep

[19:33] < vmlemon_> ;)

[19:33] < vmlemon_> GNUWin32 "fixes" that, though

[19:33] < vmlemon_> I'm even more surprised that it has 'ls' and 'pwd'

[19:34] < ms-> "Novell just really annoys me"

[19:34] < ms-> In what way?

[19:34] < ms-> as an org? or as in how their software works?

[19:34] < vmlemon_> That's Novell thinking ;)

[19:34] *** vmlemon_ ducks

[19:35] < Davbo> as an org, basically that agreement they made with MS

[19:35] < ms-> Ah

[19:35] < Davbo> the patent thing

[19:35] < vmlemon_> What about Xandros?

[19:35] < vmlemon_> They also signed it with them :|

[19:35] < vmlemon_> and TurboLinux

[19:35] < vmlemon_> (some obscure Japanese distro)

[19:36] < Davbo> all of them are just as bad then vmlemon_

[19:36] < Davbo> in my eyes

[19:36] < ms-> The problem isn't really the agreements IMO, but rather the patents in the first place

[19:36] *** vmlemon_ wonders what anyone thinks of the anti-MSOOXML propaganda...

[19:37] < ms-> Also saying "we won't sue you for this list of patents" vs "we won't sue you for these..." is pretty pointless posturing really

[19:37] *** vmlemon_ is neither pro-ODF, anti-ODF, pro-MSOOXML or anti-MSOOXML

[19:37] < Davbo> hmm

[19:37] < ms-> vmlemon_: I find it relatively amusing that MS's OOXML implementation isn't compliant with the spec

[19:37] < ms-> Personally I use ODF for everything

[19:37] < vmlemon_> (They're just file formats, in my view, and there's nothing that would drive me to have a vendetta against one)

[19:37] < ms-> It's a relatively sensible format

[19:38] < ms-> I see little point for wheel reinvention, and that's what MS have done IMO by doing something independent

[19:38] < vmlemon_> I tend to use ODF most of the time, if I'm working on stuff for personal use

[19:39] < ms-> I think also MSOOXML is a red herring - its a standard without an compliant implementation

[19:39] < ms-> So it sounds like a standard, but isn't

[19:39] < Davbo> what's your opinion on Novell ms-?

[19:39] < vmlemon_> but if I have I have to work on something for college, or redistribution, I use RTF

[19:39] < ms-> But then .doc is a defacto standard

[19:39] < Davbo> in regards to the patent agreement

[19:40] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[19:40] < ms-> I view it in similar terms to the 1938 agreement between Hitler & Chambelain, and the similar agreement between Stalin & Hitler- with it being unclear which side is which, nor particularly mattering

[19:40] < ms-> it's a piece of paper that's just a matter of convenience between two large companies

[19:41] < ms-> Total irrelevance to me

[19:41] < ms-> Since there could easily be a patent that I have no knowledge of

[19:41] < ms-> that I've either infringed upon, or will infringe upon, or will be created covering stuff I've already created

[19:42] < ms-> and I'd be potentially sued for implementing an idea

[19:42] < j_baker> Is the British patent system as evil as the American one?

[19:42] < Davbo> Hmm

[19:42] < ms-> which isn't what patents were originally about

[19:42] < ms-> j_baker: in theory no. In practice, almost

[19:42] < ms-> Davbo: All the large companies involved with software have them

[19:43] < Davbo> Yeah and it reinforces that they believe the patents are valid

[19:43] < j_baker> I would imagine if nothing else, a British company could patent something in the American patent system and have it covered under international treaties.

[19:43] < ms-> j_baker: In theory software "as such" (the phrase goes) is not patentable in the UK

[19:43] < ms-> Davbo: Courts have enforced software patents in the US. They're valid there.

[19:44] < ms-> The only way of testing whether the *specific* patents apply is actually to sue each other and test it in court

[19:44] < ms-> That's in my mind *far* more harmful than people saying they *won't* sue each other

[19:44] < ms-> j_baker: Precisely

[19:44] < j_baker> I remember reading an article that said that IBM filed for more than 3 patents a day last year.

[19:44] < ms-> Also in the UK, if you create something, you can also have as a claim

[19:45] < ms-> claim no. The embodiment of the invention as part of a computer system

[19:45] < ms-> or similar

[19:45] < ms-> which means in practice "this concept as software"

[19:45] < ms-> I forget the exact phrase, but it boils down to that

[19:46] < ms-> This is why I like digging up old technologies

[19:46] < j_baker> I think there should also be a "loser pays" system for patent lawsuits. I think that would put a lot of patent trolls in their place.

[19:46] < ms-> I think it'd be better to actually throw out software patents all together myself

[19:47] < ms-> Since often they break the idea of patents

[19:47] < j_baker> Me too, but I don't see that happening. At least not in the US.

[19:47] < ms-> Patents were supposed to cover implementations

[19:47] < ms-> Not concepts

[19:47] < j_baker> Our government is too beholden to corporate interests (not that any other governments aren't)

[19:48] < ms-> Now whether the former is valid, is a different matter, but for them to do software i

[19:48] < ms-> is dumb

[19:48] < ms-> j_baker: I don't think the UK gov't is anywhere near as bad as the US

[19:48] < ms-> (as an institution this is)

[19:49] < ms-> Or if they are, the barrel they're pushed forward over is less obvious

[19:49] < j_baker> Hopefully one day, bigger corporations will come to their senses and realize that software patents aren't in their best interest.

[19:49] < j_baker> I think they're already coming to that idea.

[19:50] < j_baker> Aside from the occassional sabre rattling, most of them are beginning to view patents as more of a defensive measure than anything else.

[19:50] < ms-> Yep

[19:50] < Davbo> on a side note: there's a shop across the road from my university called "Novel Computers"

[19:51] < vmlemon_> I reckon that IBM must hold thousands

[19:51] < ms-> vmlemon_: They do.

[19:51] < vmlemon_> Checking now

[19:51] < Davbo> yup

[19:52] < ms-> vmlemon_: Sooner or later I suspect someone is going to get locked up for patent infringement (probably relating to contempt of court or similar)

[19:52] < ms-> After all the key problem is that I can have an idea, write some code, give it away, and unknowingly infringe on someone's patent

[19:53] < ms-> That's just plain broken

[19:53] < Davbo> If you don't want it to be you, quick run and make a deal with Microsoft.

[19:53] < vmlemon_> Of course, a lot of supposedly friendly towards open source companies have patent portfolios from their "past lives" as purveyors of closed/semi-closed software

[19:53] < vmlemon_> (e.g. RealNetworks, Sun and IBM)

[19:53] < ms-> j_baker: Visible here

[19:53] < vmlemon_> *hefty patent portfolios

[19:53] < vmlemon_> even

[19:53] < ms-> yep

[19:54] *** vmlemon_ ponders the likeliness of Microsoft mucking up with their "irrevocable" Promises...

[19:54] < vmlemon_> (or even trying to withdraw them)

[19:54] < ms-> j_baker: Can I send you some feedback on your application off list (cc'ing Lawouach) ?

[19:54] < j_baker> Sure.

[19:54] < vmlemon_> j_baker: Yes

[19:55] < vmlemon_> I can access it OK here

[19:55] < ms-> cool

[19:55] *** Davbo is feeling grumpy and cynical today

[19:56] < vmlemon_> If you want an open source timebomb/deadly weapon, you could always look at implementations of DivX and XviD...

[19:56] < vmlemon_> If I remember correctly, some of them have a clause in the source code saying to use it only for "learning purposes

[19:56] < vmlemon_> "

[19:57] < vmlemon_> Mostly due to being extremely patent encumbered by nature

[19:57] < vmlemon_> Which isn't really a surprise

[19:57] < j_baker> A lot of MS's software is released under a similar license.

[19:57] < j_baker> MS being microsoft.

[19:58] < j_baker> (I keep forgetting that this could be confusing)

[19:58] < Davbo> Michael needs a new alias :P

[19:58] < vmlemon_> I think some of the GSM specification example source code is covered under patents, too

[19:58] < vmlemon_> (mostly related to AMR and other audio codec reference implementations)

[19:58] < j_baker> Really? Is the GSM specification owned by someone?

[19:59] < vmlemon_> It's owned by a consortium

[19:59] < vmlemon_> (The GSM Association, naturally)

[19:59] < vmlemon_> Or at least it was last time I checked

[19:59] < j_baker> That's what I always assumed, but wasn't for sure.

[20:00] < vmlemon_> As for W-CDMA and UMTS, NTT DoCoMo and Qualcomm have a large number of patents on it

[20:00] < ms-> Davbo: Don't worry, this will make you think the world is really strange: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whMZf9uzCwA

[20:00] < vmlemon_> as to a number of other companies, but Qualcomm is most prolific

[20:00] < vmlemon_> *do

[20:02] < Davbo> Wow.

[20:02] < Davbo> lol, look at the tags for that video

[20:03] < ms-> OK, bizarre tags

[20:05] < Davbo> nice to know Frodo is still doing quality acting

[20:08] < Lawouach> Well you CAN save the World and BE a rock star

[20:09] < Davbo> :)

[20:12] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[20:14] < vmlemon_> Argh, my connection decided to flake out

[20:14] *** vmlemon_ wonders why SourceForge keeps pushing me towards slow, crappy mirrors

[20:14] < vmlemon_> (i.e. Puzzle and HEANet)

[20:14] < ms-> Lawouach: You been watching this film? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Db4avDn1mc

[20:16] < Lawouach> nope but oh my... I should :)

[20:16] < Davbo> Woo Jeff Goldblum

[20:16] < ms-> Lawouach: Oh yes, you should

[20:18] < ms-> :)

[20:19] < Davbo> Hah, me and my brother will probably end up watching this ms-. One of our hobbies is watching the films with the worst rating on IMDB

[20:20] < ms-> It's great

[20:24] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[20:28] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[20:29] < j_baker> It sucks having a crappy router.

[20:30] < j_baker> We'll see how long I can stay on before I have to reboot again)

[20:35] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[20:36] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[20:47] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[20:57] *** ms- has added j_baker to sourceforge

[20:57] < j_baker> Awesome, thanks.

[20:58] *** ms- has added orphans

[21:00] *** ms- has added davbo

[21:02] *** ms- has added Chong-

[21:03] < vmlemon__> What about kamaeliabot? ;)

[21:03] < vmlemon__> Even though it won't ever commit ;)

[21:04] < ms-> heh

[21:05] < Davbo> Thanks ms-

[21:05] *** ms- has added pablo

[21:05] < ms-> OK, next to create directories for you...

[21:06] < Davbo> I'm writing a "simple query language" to browse some java collections :/

[21:06] < Davbo> great fun

[21:06] *** vmlemon__ bets that it will snowball into a Complex Query Language, given time

[21:06] < vmlemon__> (it's usually always the way)

[21:07] < Davbo> the code will end up snowballing but as soon as it does what's required I couldn't care less

[21:07] < vmlemon__> Good point

[21:07] < j_baker> I'm doing complex queries in my c# class

[21:07] < j_baker> They're, well, complex.

[21:07] < Davbo> is it fun j_baker ? :)

[21:08] < j_baker> Well, I've come to the conclusion that my teacher is a sadist.

[21:08] < Davbo> must be better than Java

[21:08] < ms-> directories made

[21:08] < j_baker> Dunno Davbo, I've never written java.

[21:08] < Davbo> Yeah one of my lecturers is clearly masochistic

[21:09] < vmlemon__> Is that the thing where you had to interface to the search engine blob?

[21:09] < j_baker> I really think I should talk my prof into letting me use IronPython. :D

[21:09] < ms-> You'll want to check out as follows:

[21:09] < ms-> svn co https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/trunk trunk

[21:09] < Davbo> j_baker, i echo that exactly but with Jython :P

[21:10] < Davbo> Thanks ms- :)

[21:10] *** vmlemon__ wonders where Juby and Jerl are ;)

[21:10] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[21:10] < ms-> jruby exists

[21:10] < vmlemon_> I remember seeing an IronRuby somewhere

[21:10] < ms-> No-ones insane enough to try jperl

[21:10] < Davbo> Nobody would bother with Perl lol

[21:10] < vmlemon_> Not sure about IronPerl...

[21:10] < vmlemon_> Although someone will probably cook it up

[21:11] < vmlemon_> IronCOBOL!

[21:11] < vmlemon_> ;)

[21:11] < Davbo> JORTRAN

[21:11] < Davbo> :P

[21:11] < vmlemon_> JASIC?

[21:12] < vmlemon_> IronSNOBOL?

[21:12] < vmlemon_> Jrainf*ck?

[21:12] < j_baker> Nah... IronBrainFUck

[21:12] < j_baker> you beat me to it...

[21:12] < Davbo> 10 print "look around you"

[21:12] < Davbo> 20 goto 10

[21:12] *** Davbo loves Basic ;)

[21:12] < vmlemon_> Jogo/IronLogo?

[21:13] < vmlemon_> JAppleScript?

[21:13] < j_baker> ...whereas the teaching of BASIC should be rated as a criminal offence: it mutilates the mind beyond recovery.

[21:14] < j_baker> -Dijkstra.

[21:14] < j_baker> :P

[21:14] < vmlemon_> Hah

[21:14] *** vmlemon_ wonders where Audible Basic is ;)

[21:14] < vmlemon_> Probably would be as useless as Visual Basic, though

[21:14] < j_baker> (I've never programmed in BASIC other than Visual Basic though)

[21:14] < vmlemon_> "Code should be seen, and not heard"

[21:14] < vmlemon_> (or something like that)

[21:15] < vmlemon_> I wonder if a JVM for .NET will ever show up...

[21:16] < vmlemon_> along with a .NET implementation in Java to run on top of the .NET version of the JVM

[21:16] < vmlemon_> naturally

[21:16] < vmlemon_> Unless J# counts

[21:18] < Davbo> hah, nice quote from Dijkstra, j_baker

[21:19] < vmlemon_> Taking slowness to a whole new level

[21:19] < vmlemon_> probably

[21:19] < Davbo> We were taught to program in Pascal at A-level and there's a "goto" command in turbopascal, we used to insert it at various points in our programs and ask for the teacher to help us debug them

[21:19] *** j_baker loves Dijkstra

[21:20] < j_baker> A-level?

[21:20] < Davbo> He realised after a while that we were just putting goto commands all over to frustrate him

[21:20] < Davbo> Agh, forgot you're not familiar with UK education system

[21:21] < Davbo> it's very confusing - A-level is usually just before University though

[21:21] < j_baker> I see. So like a Community college here?

[21:21] < vmlemon_> Don't you have to get x number of O-Levels/GCSEs before you can even get onto an A-Level course?

[21:22] < Davbo> Yeah

[21:22] < vmlemon_> If I remember correctly, and if the government don't scrap the lot soonish

[21:22] < vmlemon_> which they keep making gestures towards doing

[21:22] < vmlemon_> Although I have a feeling that they probably won't

[21:22] < Davbo> Yeah, i quite liked A-levels though

[21:23] < Davbo> I did Maths, Physics and Computing. I'll probably not do much more Physics now but it was really interesting

[21:24] < Davbo> what they're adding is more vocational things which are no good for the more academic courses at University

[21:25] < vmlemon_> I wonder how they'll deal with the shams that are gov't endorsed corporate/private run "academies" that are springing up as of late

[21:25] < vmlemon_> supposedly to replace large numbers of schools

[21:26] < ms-> vmlemon_: Do you meant the "degree" you can get from McDonalds?

[21:26] < Davbo> Universities like "Edge Hill" you mean?

[21:27] < vmlemon_> Not the McDonalds thing

[21:27] < vmlemon_> But probably not far off

[21:27] < Davbo> Universities that advertise on TV crack me up

[21:27] < vmlemon_> How so?

[21:27] < vmlemon_> Probably since they promise the Earth but underdeliver, and overcharge?

[21:28] < Davbo> Good universities don't need to advertise, especially when the ads are just about stuff like clubbing

[21:29] < vmlemon_> Phony diploma mills anyone? (Fly-by-night operations that produce a realistic-looking "diploma" or subject certificate to anyone stupid enough to pay)

[21:30] < vmlemon_> Although they've been going for ages

[21:30] < Davbo> at £3070 a year it's horrible

[21:31] < j_baker> Bah... TV ads are nothing. My university spends way too much on football because it's "good advertising."

[21:31] < Davbo> When they explain the finance to you at college it's hilarious too, "It'll cost £3070 per year, but it's okay you can get a loan!!"

[21:32] < vmlemon_> If I remember correctly, some of the universities say that they've "invested £x million/billion" in their campus and facilities, but in reality they're fairly run down and in a really crappy part of a city or town where no-one goes

[21:33] < Davbo> Yeah, I was originally gonna go to Durham and the halls I was put in were really really basic, and they were charging extortionate prices

[21:34] < Davbo> The place was full of Oxbridge kids really, not my kinda place.

[21:35] < vmlemon_> "Posh snobs", to put it somewhat harshly?

[21:35] < Davbo> Yeah, that's an understatement for many of the people i was interviewed along side

[21:35] *** ms- has created http://groups.google.com/group/kamaelia

[21:35] *** ms- has sent out invites to existing subscribers of kamaelia-*@lists.sourceforge.net

[21:36] *** ms- has hit an automated "is this spam?" message from google as a result, and a "justify the reason for sending this many invites" message

[21:36] < ms-> :-/

[21:36] < j_baker> Later guys.

[21:36] < ms-> j_baker: cya

[21:36] *** j_baker has parted #kamaelia

[21:36] < vmlemon_> See you j_baker

[21:38] < Davbo> Firefox 3 is way better under GNOME :(

[21:39] < vmlemon_> And PowerShell becomes usable with the addition of GNUWin32 grep...

[21:39] < vmlemon_> Makes me wonder why they never implemented it in the first place

[21:41] < vmlemon_> o.O "You can buy the book and read it on paper, or, if Raymond's politics are just too anti-idiotarian for you to consider giving him money, you can even read it online for free and rest assured that the author will not receive a penny for his hard work."

[21:52] < Davbo> Hmm should I get an email about the group ms- ?

[21:52] < ms-> You weren't subscribed, so no - please just join

[21:53] *** ms- looks

[21:53] < Davbo> oh, i was on the kamaelia-list

[21:53] < Davbo> but i'll go add myself

[21:53] < ms-> you were?

[21:53] < ms-> which address?

[21:53] < ms-> j_baker will have to join, as will orphans

[21:53] < Davbo> dave.uk at gmail I think

[21:54] < ms-> odd

[21:54] < Davbo> I only signed up yesterday (i removed myself once after getting lots of spam that wasn't being filtered)

[21:55] < ms-> Ah

[21:55] < ms-> Yes, sf filters kinda suck

[21:56] < Davbo> "You are now a member of kamaelia. "

[21:56] *** Davbo grins

[21:56] < ms-> heh

[21:56] < ms-> That's cool

[22:00] < vmlemon_> Hah, http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=468574&cid=22577292

[22:01] < Davbo> lol Geometric progression from Unix to Ubuntu ? ;)

[22:02] < ms-> :)

[22:03] *** Davbo loves Maths.

[22:03] *** Davbo doesn't have many friends ;-)

[22:04] < Davbo> (that was a joke btw)

[22:05] < Davbo> What annoys me about GCSE's changing from the way they are to all vocational things, people don't get involved in Maths unless they have it forced upon them

[22:06] < Davbo> especially kids

[22:09] < vmlemon_> "Where the heck have you been? We've come a long way since those days -- now we have classic poop, diet poop, cherry poop, new poop, and of course salty lemonade!"

[22:11] *** Davbo sighs at Facebook

[22:11] < Davbo> "You have a Vampires request." "You have a Movie Quiz request."

[22:12] *** vmlemon_ is glad he's never used it

[22:13] < Davbo> I wish I didn't sign up, but so much interaction with students happens on there. You're constantly asked "do you have facebook" and if you don't people look at you have leprosy

[22:16] < vmlemon_> MySpace makes me want to vomit at the thought of it, from what little of it I've seen

[22:16] < vmlemon_> and I don't use it

[22:18] < Davbo> Yeah, it's horrific. I never used that but my ex made me an account on it lol

[22:18] < Davbo> don't know if it still exists

[22:18] < vmlemon_> (e.g. it lets people do really awful things with theming, and it's essentially a gigantic flypaper for JavaScript-delivered malware for those unlucky enough to use a browser/OS that allows it to execute and install native software)

[22:20] < vmlemon_> It's GeoCities 2.0 without arbitrary file management and with less flexibility to customize it

[22:20] < vmlemon_> in my view

[22:20] < Davbo> it's not themeing though, it's full website design basically with HTML (because everyone is a website designer!)

[22:21] *** vmlemon_ wonders why so many of these "social networking" fad sites/MySpace clones exist, and *gasp* actually have some level of popularity

[22:21] < Davbo> People love to talk about themselves

[22:25] < Davbo> You guys heard about how Google is planning on getting us the SoC money?

[22:26] < Chong-> it also because dreaming is more beautiful than reality; virtual worlds are better than real worlds:-)

[22:27] < Chong-> Davbo: What do you mean?

[22:27] < Chong-> about the SoC money

[22:27] < Davbo> Leslie posted about it on the Student mailing list: They basically plan on sending us all a Mastercard and loading the money onto that

[22:28] < Davbo> seems pretty clever :)

[22:29] < Chong-> MS-: Just read the log, thanks a lot for your effort. Now I officially become one member of kamaelia project. :-)

[22:29] < ms-> :)

[22:30] < Chong-> I see. And got some advertising fees from Mastercard.

[22:32] < Chong-> But Mastercard is credit card. there would be a lot of issues. credit history, anti-laudering and so on.

[22:33] < Davbo> I think it's more of a stored-value card Chong-

[22:33] < vmlemon_> What about people who end up abusing it and trying to make their attached overdrawn?

[22:34] < vmlemon_> Although the assumption of being stored-value is probably correct

[22:34] < vmlemon_> Unless it's one of those "virtual credit cards" where they e-mail a temporary credit card number

[22:34] < vmlemon_> with a pre-set balance

[22:35] < Davbo> It's a stored-value card vmlemon_, so they can load it up with x amount for everyone. Not a credit card

[22:35] < vmlemon_> OK

[22:35] < vmlemon_> Interesting idea, though

[22:35] < ms-> That's pretty cool

[22:35] < Chong-> Something like a debit card.

[22:36] < Davbo> Yeah Chong-

[22:36] < Davbo> Better than Western Union which they used previously

[22:36] < Chong-> But in the UK, it is ilegal to open such an acount without identity and address proof, I think.

[22:38] *** vmlemon_ remembers there being a similar stored-value card available over here, that was credited using a PayPoint terminal, although not many businesses accepted them, and the business went under ages ago (Splash Plastic)

[22:38] < ms-> Probably this sort of thing: http://www.maestrocard.com/uk/prepaid/about.html

[22:38] < Davbo> thank you ms-, i couldn't find an example :(

[22:39] < ms-> There's also this: http://www.splashplastic.com/index.html

[22:39] < ms-> which I think is UK specific

[22:39] < vmlemon_> Didn't know they were still around

[22:39] < ms-> There was another one I saw last year, but I forget where

[22:39] < Chong-> I see.:-)

[22:40] < ms-> Also here: http://www.what-prepaid-card.co.uk/features/prepaid-master-card.html

[22:40] < Davbo> Chong-, I recommend you read " CPT Letters, Tax Forms, Payments, etc. (long but important) " on the student mailing list

[22:41] < Davbo> http://groups.google.com/group/google-summer-of-code-students-list/browse_thread/thread/af6b78ad4a9ad4c5

[22:41] < vmlemon_> WTF, the PostgreSQL mailing lists are blocked for access here (and are in the categories "hackers-lg" and "computing-lg" for some weird reason)

[22:41] < vmlemon_> :|

[22:41] < Davbo> lol!

[22:41] < Davbo> "hackers" hahaha

[22:41] < Davbo> :)

[22:42] < vmlemon_> http://wap.orange.co.uk/r/avblocked/?CAT=%5Bhackers-lg%7Ccomputing-lg%5D&RULE=%5BDeny%5D&DATETIME=%5B23/Apr/2008:23:39:36%5D&FILE=php&CODE=06dc88f7cf827d486e76a83eba063d3ffbdaef9de9f246546bf8b3237503f730a902db232a8b86f9d577b9f62db0c7d5d756f0f199fd7b9c4709d4c80bd3168f63e19a6cbaa131de08be8f63c32211bd39275e99f61120df&LANG=eng&REASON=CAT18&URL=http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers-win32/2004-01/msg00063.php

[22:42] < vmlemon_> although you won't be able to access it outside the Orange network, so it's kind of useless...

[22:42] < vmlemon_> (it redirects you to an error page, I think)

[22:42] < ms-> "The page you are trying to access is only available via your

[22:42] < ms-> Orange phone, when connected via the Orange GPRS network."

[22:44] < Davbo> http://albums.kimag.es/albums/thephpjedi/48081664.jpg

[22:44] < Davbo> Swag! :)

[22:45] < vmlemon_> http://house404.co.uk/osafeguard.png if anyone wonders what it looks like

[22:45] *** vmlemon_ calls it "Obnoxious Safeguard", for obvious reasons ;)

[22:47] < ms-> Davbo: is that from last year?

[22:48] *** orphans notes he is now officially a kamaelia dev (:D), has joined the new ml and is off to bed (interview early tomorrow)

[22:48] < Davbo> think it's this years ms- because the CD's have the new logo I think

[22:48] < orphans> night all

[22:48] < Davbo> night orphans

[22:49] < Chong-> Thanks, Davbo. I will read it.

[22:49] < Chong-> Night, orphans.

[22:50] < ms-> Davbo: CD's ?

[22:50] < ms-> You mean the oval things on the left?

[22:50] < Davbo> are they disks of some kind?

[22:50] < vmlemon_> Hah

[22:50] < ms-> (not sure those are CDs or if you mean those)

[22:50] < ms-> That was the logo last year on the front of the t-shirt

[22:51] < Davbo> ah zooming in makes it clear they're not lol

[22:51] < Davbo> hmm not sure then ms- :)

[22:51] < Davbo> it's the response when you do !swag in #gsoc

[22:52] < ms-> Our survey says "last year"

[22:52] < Davbo> I was under the impression this years is a surprise anyway, so you're probably correct - last year!

[22:52] < ms-> HTTP/1.1 200 OK

[22:52] < ms-> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:51:48 GMT

[22:52] < ms-> Server: Apache/2.0.61 (Unix) PHP/4.4.7 mod_ssl/2.0.61 OpenSSL/0.9.7e mod_fastcgi/2.4.2 DAV/2 SVN/1.4.2

[22:52] < ms-> Last-Modified: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:46:22 GMT

[22:52] < ms-> :)

[22:52] < ms-> If in doubt ask the server :)

[22:52] < Davbo> lol :)

[22:53] < Davbo> hopefully we'll get better stuff then! :P

[22:53] < Davbo> LH says we're getting a book of some kind

[22:55] < vmlemon_> Night

[22:55] < Chong-> night, vmlemon_.

[22:56] < Davbo> night

[22:56] < Chong-> Davbo: hope so. If CDs, probably linux package.

[22:57] < ms-> Davbo: There was a book (for students) last year - "Producing OSS " (which is a good book IMO). No idea if they'll do that this year.

[22:57] < Davbo> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=531044&cid=23162960

[22:58] < Davbo> ooo, I hope we get a book like that

[22:59] < ms-> It wouldn't be Vim or Emacs - it'd be Kate

[22:59] < ms-> (Have you seen the number of KDE projects ?! ;-) :-) :-D )

[23:00] < Davbo> hehe yeah

[23:00] *** sadrul has joined #kamaelia

[23:03] < Davbo> Heh, Sun are gonna sort out the last bits so Java can be open-source

[23:04] < Davbo> only took a couple of years

[23:04] < Davbo> also ms-, using Kate at the moment. It's awesome

[23:06] < ms-> I particularly like the projects aspect of it

[23:06] < Davbo> can't beat Eclipse for a big Java project though

[23:06] < ms-> along with the fact that you can have a terminal there as well

[23:06] < ms-> For python it's pretty sufficient IMO

[23:06] < Davbo> Yeah, using it for this Java thing (only 5 classes)

[23:08] *** ms- notes he's planning on organising pycamp UK this year for June 7th, probably in manchester

[23:08] < Chong-> MS: just checked in my old codes and joined in the kamaelia google group

[23:08] < ms-> Chong-: cool

[23:09] < Chong-> I can see you, Davbo and orphans are already there :-)

[23:09] < Chong-> :-)

[23:10] < ms-> Incidentally, with regard to your miniaxon there were some comments which sprang to mind when we reviewed it

[23:10] < ms-> I'll forward those now that we're on the "People won't be as worried by negative feedback" side of the acceptance into GSOC line

[23:11] < ms-> It relates largely to *perspective* for use of function calls

[23:11] < ms-> (ala 1st, 2nd & 3rd person perspective)

[23:12] < ms-> Feedback mails will probably happen tomorrow though given it's lates

[23:12] < Chong-> MS-: That's great. I'd like to hear your feedback.:-)

[23:13] < Chong-> Personally, I think negative feedback is more useful than positive one.:-)

[23:13] < Davbo> ms-, I plan on doing MiniAxon and some Kamaelia things for my first commit this weekend

[23:13] < Davbo> MiniAxon (again)

[23:13] < Davbo> So if you'd like to wait for that - just letting you know

[23:13] < ms-> Davbo: Ta

[23:14] < ms-> please do check in the NXT component you've written though

[23:14] < ms-> /Sketches is deliberately named so

[23:14] < Davbo> will do!

[23:15] < ms-> I had a hard disk crash 2 years ago, whilst we were in the throes of doing a release

[23:15] < Davbo> i blogged it and got some good response from Pablo (forgot his alias) about it

[23:15] < Davbo> that and the key fob eh ms-, unlucky fellow

[23:15] < ms-> But due to the fact that everything was on sourceforge, the good , the nearly done, and the nasty, I didn't lose anything

[23:15] < ms-> The key fob was annoying

[23:16] < ms-> Broke my own rules there of using /Sketches

[23:16] < ms-> (ie didn't check in)

[23:16] < ms-> ho hum

[23:16] < ms-> sucks to be me

[23:16] < Chong-> :-)

[23:17] < Davbo> I'll remember not to bring up the key fob lol, you're clearly still frustrated with yourself about that

[23:17] < ms-> Yeah, it's the sort of thing that really annoys me.

[23:18] < ms-> There wasn't anything confidential or anything on there

[23:18] < ms-> and it was formatted as ext3 anyway, so 99.999% of people wouldn't know what to do with it and would assume it was corrupt/broken/needed formatting

[23:18] < ms-> but still

[23:20] < Davbo> 'least you didn't find it and see someone had formatted it to ntfs lol

[23:20] < Davbo> that would have been worse i'm sure

[23:26] < Davbo> You seen that ms- ?

[23:27] < Davbo> it wont spoil you since you're up to the current season

[23:27] < Davbo> Really cool picture though :)

[23:27] < ms-> I've seen up to episode 3 (where they're up to on Sky right now)

[23:27] < ms-> of S4 that is

[23:28] < ms-> What ep is that picture from?

[23:28] < ms-> (I haven't clicked on the link yet)

[23:28] < ms-> I'm trying hard to avoid BSG spoilers, since they almost always tend to do the unexpected/cool/hard thing.

[23:28] < Davbo> it's not from an episode; but you're safe to click

[23:29] < Davbo> it's just a cool fan picture

[23:30] < ms-> yep

[23:31] < Davbo> Yeah :) hehe

[23:32] < ms-> Hires version http://www.bsg.cz/imgs/news/2008-01/others/posledni_vecere.jpg

[23:34] *** ms- predicts that the recurring phrase of season 4 will be "he's not the final cylon, he's just a very naughty boy"

[23:34] < ms-> and on that not, I'm off

[23:34] < ms-> night

[23:34] *** ms- has parted #kamaelia

[23:34] < Davbo> lol :)

[23:34] < Davbo> night

[23:43] < Chong-> Gotta sleep. good night, Davbo and others.

[23:43] *** Chong- has parted #kamaelia