[00:30] < Davbo> night all

[00:37] *** MS- has parted #kamaelia

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[08:00] < vmlemon> Hi

[08:07] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> Morning

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[09:14] < Chong> Morning, everyone.

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[09:48] < orphans> morning MS-

[09:55] < vmlemon> Hi

[09:56] < orphans> hey vmlemon

[09:56] < orphans> hows it going?

[09:56] < vmlemon> OK

[09:56] < vmlemon> I ought to RAR up some of the files on my USB drive, since it's almost full :|

[09:58] < orphans> on my uni account I swear I've got things zipped up like five times over in a desperate attempt to save space. they get zipped, stored with some more crap, then that gets zipped and the whole process starts again

[09:58] < vmlemon> Ouch

[09:58] < vmlemon> I don't think you're supposed to compress stuff that's already compressed, since it ends up inflating it ;)

[10:00] < vmlemon> On my NetWare share here (62.1GB used of 126GB on the server), I supposedly have an "Unlimited" Space Restriction, yet I only have 9,575KB Space Available :|

[10:00] < vmlemon> How odd, seeing as it's supposedly unrestricted

[10:00] < vmlemon> There was one file that claimed to be last archived in 2039, for some reason

[10:01] < vmlemon> Although it was never archived, and we haven't made it to year 2039 yet...

[10:01] < vmlemon> (Probably a bug)

[10:01] < vmlemon> Grr, it doesn't say how much I've actually used, although it's well under a GB

[10:02] < vmlemon> Aah, 88.5MB roughly

[10:02] < orphans> :)

[10:02] < vmlemon> So much for "Unlimited"

[10:02] < vmlemon> How I hate that overused and abused word

[10:06] < MS-> orphans: morning

[10:07] < MS-> unlimited*

[10:07] < vmlemon> Limited with an unknown limit ;)

[10:07] < MS-> * so limited you'll wish you'd found a PAYG equivalent

[10:08] < vmlemon> Down from 80MB of files to 58.0MB for about 100+ items

[10:08] < orphans> * but so slow you'll never be able to get anywhere near a limit we might give you :)

[10:08] < vmlemon> Still have some gzipped/bzip2ed stuff, and some zip archives that might be smaller converted to RAR

[10:09] < vmlemon> "How Low Can You Go"?

[10:09] < orphans> you good MS-?

[10:13] < orphans> (answers own question) - busy :)

[10:15] < MS-> heh

[10:15] < MS-> yep

[10:15] < MS-> I'm good though - thanks :)

[10:15] < MS-> Yourself?

[10:15] < orphans> not too bad ta - procrastinating as always :)

[10:15] *** MS- reads back the answer previously mentioned

[10:15] < MS-> Oh, misread back

[10:15] < MS-> :)

[10:17] < orphans> ooh, exam timetable available

[10:17] < vmlemon> Yay, uploads seem really fast here

[10:18] < vmlemon> Even with 5MB+ files

[10:22] < Chong> Interesting. In Manchester, it's 100M university + 250M from computer science dept if you are CS students

[10:23] < Chong> It's not very fast, from my experience, though cannot say it slow, either.

[10:23] < vmlemon> I assume that they're connected to JANET/GEANT

[10:25] < vmlemon> Yay, "Did you know you can change the layout of your photostream page? Fun! "

[10:26] < vmlemon> Just what I've aways wanted (not)

[10:26] < Chong> Yes. accessible from my documents in windows or home in linux.

[10:27] < vmlemon> Ugh, we don't have any Linux/UNIX boxes here (unless you count the few PPC Mac OS X Tiger machines)

[10:27] < Chong> vmlemon: "Did you know you can change the layout of your photostream page? Fun! " What do you mean?

[10:28] < vmlemon> I'd saw it one the side of the Flickr uploader

[10:28] < vmlemon> page

[10:29] < Chong> interesting. Flickr is very good for picture sharing, but is not as dominant as youtube in video sharing.

[10:30] < vmlemon> I only just found out now that they support video uploads

[10:30] < vmlemon> albeit only for Pro users

[10:30] < Chong> Mac OS X has more fun than windows.

[10:31] < Chong> I see. yahoo - google competition.

[10:32] < Lawouach> hello

[10:32] < orphans> *sigh* worst exam is on the first day it could be

[10:32] < Chong> morning, Lawouach

[10:32] < orphans> hi Lawouach

[10:32] < vmlemon> Yay, my connection here passes the Phorm test, according to the Cookie Test thing, although the university/college network's inline proxy server gets "This page has been intercepted!" with the redirect test

[10:32] < orphans> talk about chucking us in at the deep end

[10:32] < vmlemon> Seems to work OK with the non-redirect test

[10:34] < Chong> How many exams do you get, orphans?

[10:35] < orphans> it'll be 6 definitely, with an extra couple if I get time to revise for them

[10:37] < Chong> Wow, so many. :)

[10:37] < vmlemon> Cool, http://blogs.gnome.org/uraeus/2008/03/01/dvb-c-now-working-with-gstreamer/

[10:37] < orphans> heh, it's not that bad. In my first year I had 11

[10:38] < orphans> nearly died that year :)

[10:39] < Chong> it very crue;)

[10:39] < Chong> How long did the 11 exams take?

[10:41] < orphans> erm, i think there were something like four three hourers in there, then the rest were 75 mins

[10:43] < Chong> vmlemon: it's very interesting. It seems that you are quite good at video streaming, codec

[10:44] < vmlemon> Shame we can't get cable service, or DVB-C hardware here :|

[10:45] < Chong> After 3 hours' exams, you would lose all your energy.

[10:45] < vmlemon> Still, interesting to know that they haven't reinvented the wheel for their network

[10:46] < orphans> Chong, this year I've only got one three hour which is nice.

[10:46] < Chong> that's a good news.

[11:06] < vmlemon> kamaeliabot: dance

[11:06] Reply: does the macarena

[11:06] *** vmlemon yawns

[11:33] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> kamaeliabot: poke

[11:33] Reply: Not the eye! Not the eye!

[11:33] *** MS- gets tempted to make kamaeliabot start fighting back

[11:33] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> MS-: poke

[11:34] < MS-> Not the eye! Not the eye!

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[12:39] *** platom is now known as LawAtWork

[12:39] < LawAtWork> heya folks

[12:41] < MS-> heya

[12:42] *** MS- is on a conference call

[12:42] < MS-> woo

[12:43] < LawAtWork> :)

[13:21] < MS-> Hm, I've just noticed that Pablo's name rang a bell for a good reason - he applied to GSOC last year as well

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[14:09] *** LawAtWork is unhappy at his lack of time these days

[14:10] *** MS- hands you some

[14:12] *** Trun has parted #kamaelia

[14:16] < LawAtWork> ta :)

[14:16] < LawAtWork> find me a job at the BBC which allows me to work full time on Kamaelia :)

[14:16] < LawAtWork> heehee

[14:18] < MS-> heh

[14:18] < MS-> I'd love to try that :)

[14:19] < LawAtWork> :)

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[14:51] < MS-> simon - I haven't seen your response to the question I forwarded to all the students

[14:51] < MS-> did you recieve it?

[14:53] < MS-> Also, I don't know if you saw it, but whilst you've provided some code based on modifying existing kamaelia code, we haven't received any new (basic) component from you, nor system - as requested.

[14:54] < MS-> simon89: If you could do those things asap it's be much appreciated

[15:20] < MS-> simon89: did you see that?

[15:28] < simon89> MS-: Im starting on the component now

[15:29] < MS-> And the question?

[15:30] < simon89> Ill try to answer it later tonight

[15:30] < MS-> thanks

[15:43] < LawAtWork> http://farmdev.com/thoughts/44/pypi-cheeseshop-on-google-app-engine/

[15:43] < LawAtWork> some people really excited with little :)

[15:43] < LawAtWork> It appears that CGI si all the hype again thanks to Google

[15:43] < LawAtWork> who would have thought?

[15:43] < MS-> It's great isn't it?

[15:43] < MS-> :)

[15:45] < LawAtWork> I don't know what to think

[15:45] < LawAtWork> People get excited whenever Google releases some patchy application

[15:46] < LawAtWork> Not saying GAE doesn't have its place

[15:46] < LawAtWork> But the amount of crazyness around it is just ridiculous at times

[15:46] < MS-> People get excited whenever < google|apple> releases some patchy < web app|hardware|os update>

[15:46] < LawAtWork> Anyway that my "sigh of the day"

[15:47] < LawAtWork> yes indeed

[15:47] < MS-> Human nature really

[15:47] < MS-> 100s of years all our economies have been based on gold

[15:47] < LawAtWork> Yeah I guess

[15:47] < MS-> Only recently (by comparison) has anyone actually found a use for it beyond

[15:47] < MS-> "oooooh, shiny"

[15:47] < LawAtWork> ah ah yeah :)

[15:48] < LawAtWork> That particular blog makes little sense to me

[15:48] < LawAtWork> It's like the World stops because of GAE and what it brings to him

[15:48] < LawAtWork> Yet he speaks about getting a proxy for download too big for GAE to process

[15:49] < LawAtWork> Just makes no sense

[15:49] < LawAtWork> Hi jle

[15:49] < LawAtWork> oops j_baker

[15:49] < LawAtWork> stupid irssi doesn't do autocomplete it seems

[15:49] < MS-> I think he might like the idea of "my code is running on google's immense web farm"

[15:49] < MS-> j_baker's left the room

[15:49] < LawAtWork> yes

[15:49] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> LawAtWork: my auto complete on irssi works....

[15:50] < LawAtWork> bcarlyon|lsrfm: ah indeed mine too

[15:50] < LawAtWork> except it doesn't seem to flip around all nicknames with a common prefix

[15:50] < LawAtWork> so

[15:50] < LawAtWork> typing "j" doesn't offer me the choice

[15:50] < LawAtWork> it defaults to the first nickname starting with 'j'

[15:51] < LawAtWork> MS-: I have to get used to irssi :)

[15:51] < LawAtWork> sigh

[15:51] < LawAtWork> end of the day

[15:51] < LawAtWork> Anywho

[15:51] < LawAtWork> shall be going soon

[15:51] < LawAtWork> will speak to you folks later

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[16:06] < simon89> MS-: I wrote a very simple component: mellby.no-ip.org/kamaelia/

[16:06] *** bcarlyon|nub is now known as bcarlyon|laptop

[16:07] < Davbo-eee> good afternoon all

[16:07] < MS-> simon89: OK

[16:08] < orphans> afternoon Davbo-eee, all

[16:08] < MS-> You probably ought to be aware that calling the superclass like

[16:08] < MS-> component.__init__(self)

[16:08] < MS-> is essentially wrong these days? (The pygame code does that in some places because it has to because pygame only provides old style classes)

[16:09] < MS-> thanks BTW

[16:10] *** MS- calls it a day and heads home

[16:10] < MS-> cya

[16:10] *** MS- has parted #kamaelia

[16:13] < orphans> bcarlyon|laptop, 'grats on getting into SoC :)

[16:13] *** orphans has been log reading

[16:15] < bcarlyon|laptop> Thanks orphans :-)

[16:15] < orphans> them php fellows have nabed themselves a goodun :)

[16:19] < bcarlyon|laptop> Thanks for the compliment

[16:20] < orphans> exciting all this waiting though - I reckon you might be missing out on the best bit...

[16:21] < bcarlyon|laptop> I agree, I would have liked to have waited, but conflicts need to be resolved.

[16:22] < bcarlyon|laptop> Apparently one guy has been accepted on 4 different projects....

[16:22] < orphans> that's just greedy :)

[16:23] < orphans> must've taken a lot of work

[16:23] < bcarlyon|laptop> I'm on 100% success rate, which is always good :-)

[16:23] < bcarlyon|laptop> I dont know how many apps he put in overall tho...

[16:23] < orphans> this your first year?

[16:23] < bcarlyon|laptop> Yip

[16:24] < orphans> two for two is pretty sweet :)

[16:24] < bcarlyon|laptop> Agreed.

[16:24] < bcarlyon|laptop> I reckon I might end up working on my Kamaelia project anyway, its caugh my interest

[16:24] < orphans> yeah

[16:25] < orphans> nice thing to have on the back burner :)

[16:26] < bcarlyon|laptop> Indeed.

[16:26] < bcarlyon|laptop> I shall be reapplying next year, me thinks

[16:26] < Lawouach> back

[16:27] < orphans> hey Lawouach

[16:27] < Lawouach> heya

[16:28] < orphans> how it going?

[16:29] < orphans> *hows

[16:29] < orphans> *how's :)

[16:31] < Lawouach> which one should I be answering to?

[16:31] < Lawouach> :)

[16:31] < orphans> start at the top and work down :)

[16:32] < Lawouach> It going good

[16:32] < Lawouach> Its going good

[16:32] < Lawouach> It's going good

[16:33] < orphans> heh

[16:33] *** mhrd-afk has parted #kamaelia

[16:34] < orphans> good's to hear...

[16:34] < Lawouach> :)

[16:35] < Davbo-eee> Hi Lawouach :)

[16:37] < Lawouach> hi there

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[18:31] < vmlemon_> Hi

[18:38] < Chong> Evening, vmlemon_.

[18:38] < vmlemon_> Hah, http://www.boingboing.net/2008/04/10/hello-kitty-sander.html

[18:45] < Chong> it's very cute:)

[18:46] < vmlemon_> I found it in my un-updated RSS feeds on my phone, earlier

[18:48] < Chong> it was posted on April 10, 2008 10:50 PM

[18:49] < vmlemon_> I can't view that specific page here, but that was the URL from the feed reader

[18:53] < Chong> There is also a flickr link. you can check it if you is able to visit http://flickr.com/photos/nate_marsh/377537976/in/set-72157594517861768/

[18:55] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[18:55] < MS-> evening

[18:55] < vmlemon_> Hi MS-

[18:56] < vmlemon_> Didn't know that they were going to "race" the said sander, however one would go about doing that

[18:57] < vmlemon_> o.O http://www.kittyhell.com/2008/04/02/hello-kitty-rubber-duck/

[18:57] < vmlemon_> Hybrid cat-duck?

[18:58] < MS-> OK, that's odd

[18:59] < Chong> evening, MS-

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[19:00] < Chong> race: To see which one is slowest:-)

[19:01] < vmlemon__> Damn connection

[19:01] *** vmlemon__ looks at the log

[19:01] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[19:02] < vmlemon_> Sanders aren't exactly the most "raceable" of items...

[19:03] < MS-> I guess it depends on whether they're circular motion based or rotating sand belt based

[19:03] < vmlemon_> Although cheese slices don't exactly qualify either

[19:03] < MS-> the latter could be used to give you motion

[19:03] < MS-> You'd get traction almost by definition :-)

[19:03] < vmlemon_> (I remember there being a cheese slice on a barbecue melting contest, years ago)

[19:04] < MS-> I see

[19:04] < MS-> Longest lasting or least lasting?

[19:04] < vmlemon_> Probably shortest lived cheese slice

[19:04] < vmlemon_> MS-: http://www.boingboing.net/2008/04/10/hello-kitty-sander.html - the sander in question, if you're curious

[19:05] < MS-> I saw ...

[19:05] < vmlemon_> Aah

[19:05] < MS-> I can see how that could get motion

[19:05] < MS-> being a belt sander...

[19:06] < MS-> haven't figured out the why yet though :)

[19:07] < vmlemon_> Dunno what the target market for it would be, although a commenter on one blog reckoned that it was a "make-up remover/industrial exfoliating tool"...

[19:09] < MS-> Probably a similar market to that for pink power tools

[19:10] < vmlemon_> I remember Woolies flogging a load of extremely cheap "breaks in 1 month or less" electrical goods, with all with the "feature" of having bright pink cases, recently

[19:11] < vmlemon_> Which seemed like a gimmick

[19:11] < MS-> Of course its a gimmick

[19:11] < MS-> Gimmicks are soooo important

[19:11] < MS-> :)

[19:11] < MS-> Besides, Battlestar is on tonight :)

[19:13] < Chong> And it's Hello Kitty.:-)

[19:13] < vmlemon_> The stuff in Woolworths wasn't Hello Kitty branded

[19:13] < MS-> vmlemon_: But it's pink

[19:13] < vmlemon_> or at least I don't think it was, although I've only ever seen the posters advertising outside the shop

[19:14] < vmlemon_> Probably a case of "if you make it, at least someone, somewhere will buy it"

[19:15] < MS-> If it's pink, certainly

[19:16] < vmlemon_> no matter how functionally useless, or jarring to the eye it is

[19:16] < MS-> especially if its pink

[19:16] < vmlemon_> Exactly

[19:16] < Chong> MS-: yes, pink is very important:-)

[19:17] < vmlemon_> I assume that some people would pay a premium, just to have pink vomit for the day...

[19:18] < MS-> Pink vomit's pretty easy to achieve. Just eat pink blancmange and too much rose wine

[19:18] < MS-> he says, grossing out the channel

[19:18] < vmlemon_> I wonder how many people would buy a bright orange TV, or a purple and green DVD player

[19:18] < vmlemon_> Although a certain catalogue sold the former

[19:18] < vmlemon_> (Choice, I think)

[19:19] < vmlemon_> amongst a range of other colours

[19:19] < Chong> yes. Even so, black and white are still main colors for products.

[19:19] < vmlemon_> As usual, you not only had to pay a premium to have it in another colour, but they also had a separate version which supported Teletext in the same range of colours, for some additional cost

[19:19] < vmlemon_> probably £30 more

[19:21] *** vmlemon_ wonders how many people would buy a brown or lime green car

[19:23] < vmlemon_> Although I see plenty of yellow ones, and know someone who had/has a lime green car

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[19:36] < Chong> got to eat something first. change to -afk

[19:37] *** Chong is now known as Chong-afk

[19:42] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

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[20:31] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: ecky

[20:31] Reply: Ptang!

[20:32] *** MS- watches battlestar

[20:32] *** MS- is now known as ms-away

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[21:13] < j_baker> I would just like to point out that pink is the devil.

[21:14] < vmlemon_> Hah, "Furthermore, each successive edition of Stuffit has become more and more facehuggerware. If you go to Allume's web site and try to download the "free" edition of Stuffit, you'll end up downloading the time-limited demo of their full product, which nobody in the entire world actually wants. Basically, Allume deserves some sort of Annoyance Award for managing to craft an app distribution mechanism that is actually worse than RealPlayer's"

[21:14] < j_baker> I think WinZip and WinRAR are worse. But Allume is definitely right up there.

[21:15] < j_baker> If you're looking for decompression software for the Mac, The Unarchiver is the way to go.

[21:16] < vmlemon_> I don't mind RAR/WinRAR, although I only have to use them sometimes

[21:17] < j_baker> Personally, I don't see how the Allumes and the WinZIPs of the world make money. I refuse to pay for a program just to zip/unzip things.

[21:17] < vmlemon_> The Linux CLI utility doesn't have an obnoxious "Please register me, or our developers will be begging for bones"

[21:17] < vmlemon_> message, at least

[21:17] < j_baker> Indeed.

[21:17] < vmlemon_> and it seems to give higher compression ratios, at least from what I can tell

[21:18] < vmlemon_> (the file format, that is)

[21:18] < j_baker> 7-zip is also pretty good in terms of file compression.

[21:18] < vmlemon_> Shame they don't even do a Mac version of the CLI utility, although I haven't used a recent version of Mac OS X

[21:19] < j_baker> I know OS X has a tar.gz utility

[21:19] < j_baker> in the CLI

[21:19] < j_baker> I've never tried to unzip anything in it though.

[21:19] *** vmlemon_ is probably one of the few people in the world who actually like RealPlayer (at least the not-so-obnoxious 10 and 11, although RealOne wasn't too bad)

[21:20] < j_baker> Heh... I'm criticized for liking iTunes, so I'd be the last person to complain.

[21:20] < vmlemon_> The Linux version seems decent

[21:20] < j_baker> Of iTunes?

[21:21] < vmlemon_> RealPlayer

[21:21] < j_baker> I didn't realize there was a Linux version.

[21:21] < j_baker> Ah, I see.

[21:21] < j_baker> I have RealPlayer on my cell phone.

[21:21] < vmlemon_> iTunes kind of runs under Wine/CrossOver

[21:21] < j_baker> Although I rarely use my cell phone for music.

[21:21] < j_baker> Really?

[21:21] < vmlemon_> Same here, although Nokia have customized the hell out of it

[21:22] < vmlemon_> It at least starts, and plays music, although it glitches out if you move the window

[21:22] < j_baker> Did you see that AT&T's making a browser?

[21:22] < vmlemon_> plus it does weird stuff with screen redrawing and refuses to minimize

[21:22] < vmlemon_> for some stupid reason

[21:22] < vmlemon_> (it immediately pops up again)

[21:22] < vmlemon_> Not sure how people can sell something as trivial as an archival tool, or a file system formatting/mounting extension, these days

[21:22] *** j_baker has joined #kamaelia

[21:23] < j_baker> Doh.

[21:23] < j_baker> Note to self: Be careful what buttons you press when using Mibbit.

[21:23] < vmlemon_> Seen the AT&T Labs UNIX utilities for Windows?

[21:24] < j_baker> Nope. What utilities?

[21:25] < vmlemon_> They're somewhat similar to Cygwin, although they don't have the fancy installer, and they integrate slightly better into Windows' awful shell

[21:25] < vmlemon_> Hah, http://www.tleaves.com/weblog/archives/000344.html

[21:26] < vmlemon_> http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/uwin/

[21:26] < vmlemon_> (AT&T UNIX utilities for Windows/UWIN)

[21:26] < j_baker> I should look into it.

[21:26] < j_baker> I've been looking for a decent windows console program

[21:27] < j_baker> I've been toying around with PowerShell, but it seems to break some of my code.

[21:27] < vmlemon_> Microsoft also happen to do Interix/Services for UNIX (which also happens to share an acronym for "Shut (the) F* Up", need I digress ;) )

[21:27] < vmlemon_> although the tools in it are extremely dated, compared to the stuff in Cyhwin

[21:28] < j_baker> Have you seen Console 2?

[21:28] < vmlemon_> Nope

[21:28] < j_baker> It looks pretty awesome, but it's in beta.

[21:28] < vmlemon_> PowerShell?

[21:29] < j_baker> http://sourceforge.net/projects/console/

[21:29] < j_baker> Nope, it's basically a CLI with transparency, tabs, and syntax highlighting.

[21:30] *** vmlemon_ often finds himself trying to use UNIX commands on Windows, before noticing that they're not there by default :|

[21:30] < j_baker> It's always been my theory that the CLI is just as user friendly as the GUI. It's just that people haven't been trying to enhance them like they have GUIs.

[21:30] < j_baker> Heh... I panicked the first time I tried typing in ls and got "command not found"

[21:36] < vmlemon_> o.O "When I'm forced to use a Mac or Windows computer, I often feel stupid. It's like somebody's handed me a spoon and said, "Okay, here's the tool we use for slicing tomatoes. Go for it.""

[21:37] < j_baker> I really dislike fanboys.

[21:38] < vmlemon_> I'm of the opinion that every OS has at least some weakpoints and strongpoints, although I do sometimes prefer the way certain things are handled on certain OSes

[21:39] < vmlemon_> I don't try to be a fanatic of any kind, though

[21:40] < j_baker> Well, my OS of choice is OS X. I dislike using Windows but I don't really hate it enough not to use it.

[21:40] < j_baker> And I do have to admit that Visual Studio is actually a decent IDE>

[21:41] < vmlemon_> I prefer Linux/UNIX, although I came from a mostly Classic Mac OS/Acorn RISC OS background (I only had a Classic Mac at home, and had to use a RISC OS machine for years at school)

[21:42] < j_baker> It just seems to me that Linux wasn't designed to be very user-friendly (although Ubuntu definitely seems like an exception to the rule).

[21:42] < vmlemon_> Not sure if I could stand to use Windows for any extended period of time on my machine, though

[21:42] < vmlemon_> (since it feels like a lot of things are missing to me)

[21:43] < vmlemon_> I don't know Mac OS X very well, since I've only ever used an early version ("Puma", although I can't remember the version number)

[21:43] < j_baker> It's not very difficult to figure out.

[21:43] < vmlemon_> and I remember it having a very broken toolchain/compiler set, which somewhat taints/biases my view of it

[21:44] < j_baker> It ships with gcc...

[21:44] < vmlemon_> although it has probably improved since then a lot

[21:44] < j_baker> I take that back

[21:44] < j_baker> If you install XCode, you get gcc.

[21:44] < j_baker> But XCode comes on the OS X install CD.

[21:45] < j_baker> I don't think it ships with a compiler by default.

[21:45] < vmlemon_> I tried compiling a selection of 30 open source apps direct from tarballs on Puma (which didn't come with XCode, since it wasn't out then), and roughly 90% of all of the packages failed to compile at some stage

[21:45] < j_baker> Wow.

[21:46] < vmlemon_> I played with it for about 3 hours, and was shocked that it was possible to compile "Hello World" on it without it crapping out

[21:46] < j_baker> I can't imagine how it was before XCode. I think the only real alternative was CodeWarrior.

[21:46] < j_baker> And if I remember correctly, it cost an arm and a leg.

[21:47] < vmlemon_> I think I only managed to get a few library packages installed, although most of the packages depended on later versions of various components

[21:47] *** vmlemon_ still has a "lite" copy of CodeWarrier for Classic, somewhere although he didn't use it very often

[21:48] < vmlemon_> (they did a version that only included the C/C++ compilers and didn't have a Pascal compiler, and some other bits were missing)

[21:49] < vmlemon_> You did get Project Builder (the predecessor to XCode) on Puma (10.2, I think), though

[21:50] < j_baker> Puma was 10.1

[21:50] < vmlemon_> That was it

[21:50] < j_baker> 10.2 was Jaguar.

[21:50] < vmlemon_> I recall that 10.1 didn't support Mach-O binaries at the time, or at least nothing used them

[21:51] < vmlemon_> They still used PEF binaries (a holdover from Classic)

[21:51] < vmlemon_> I'm sure that they've significantly enhanced the toolchain and the overall environment over the past 4/5 versions, though

[21:52] < vmlemon_> I did try a copy of Tiger in PearPC once, although it was excruciatingly slow, and the lack of networking support in the emulator made me lose interest quickly

[21:52] < j_baker> The cocoa libraries are awesome. It's just too bad that their documentation is a tad lacking though.

[21:52] < vmlemon_> Although that's the nature of CPU emulation

[21:53] < vmlemon_> Didn't they say they were going to kill Carbon?

[21:53] < j_baker> Pretty much.

[21:53] < vmlemon_> Hah, "So what is Perforce? Perforce is basically CVS if CVS wasn't designed by hamsters on crystal meth"

[21:54] < j_baker> You can still do 32-bit carbon, but they pretty much shitcanned Carbon 64.

[21:54] < j_baker> Heh...

[21:55] < vmlemon_> It's a shame to me that they're deciding to get rid of it, since it's one of the very few things that Mac OS X shares with it's predecessor (barring the name, of course)

[21:55] < j_baker> Personally, I'd prefer that Apple not be a slave to backwards compatibility like MS is, but I suppose I can see why some were frustrated with that decision.

[21:55] < j_baker> Especially given that it was a last minute thing.

[21:55] < vmlemon_> and it'll cause problems with certain apps that are still built with it (e.g. Photoshop)

[21:56] < j_baker> Yup. Adobe actually just announced that they're not going to release a 64-bit version of Photoshop CS3 on the mac.

[21:56] < vmlemon_> The Classic virtual machine/"Blue Box" thing was fun to play with, although they finally gouged the support code out for it in Leopard, even for PowerPC systems

[21:58] < j_baker> Classic was actually pretty useful for troubleshooting some things.

[21:59] < vmlemon_> It happened to support the traps for extensions disabling/calling the Extensions Manager at boot, although they weren't used often

[22:02] *** j_baker goes to take a nap

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[22:08] *** Uraeus_ is now known as Uraeus

[22:10] < vmlemon_> Night

[22:18] < ms-away> i probably ought to go to sleep too :)

[22:19] < ms-away> (bsg was good :) )

[22:19] < ms-away> night :)

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[22:30] < Chong> All went to sleep. Maybe I also need an earlier sleep for tomorrow's early lab.

[22:30] < Chong> Good night, all.

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