[02:18] < Chong> MS-: Are you still there?

[02:28] < Chong> It seems that you are not.:-) No poblem. See you later.

[02:29] < Chong> Good night to all.

[02:29] < Chong> who are still here

[02:29] *** Chong has parted #kamaelia

[08:06] *** sadrul has joined #kamaelia

[09:21] *** Chong has joined #kamaelia

[09:21] < Chong> Good morning, everyone.

[09:23] *** orphans has joined #kamaelia

[09:23] < bcarlyon|laptop> morning

[09:23] < orphans> morning

[09:24] < Chong> bcarlyon|laptop: how it goes

[09:24] < Chong> orphans: morning

[09:25] < orphans> morning Chong

[09:25] < Lawouach> morning guys

[09:26] < Lawouach> duh spent my morning fixed a stupid bug I had left in amplee

[09:26] < bcarlyon|laptop> alas still trying to get my component to work :-(

[09:26] < Lawouach> meh

[09:26] < Lawouach> way to go

[09:26] < Chong> Lawouach: morning

[09:26] < bcarlyon|laptop> morning Lawouach

[09:26] < Lawouach> s/fixed/fixing

[09:27] < orphans> morning Lawouach

[09:27] < Chong> bcarlyon|laptop: :-) fortunately, I have done mine earlier. So I can enjoy the sunshine today :-)

[09:28] < bcarlyon|laptop> Sunshine what sunshine it is raingin

[09:28] < bcarlyon|laptop> raining*

[09:28] < bcarlyon|laptop> I lost 6 hours last night as I was working, filling in for a friend....

[09:28] < orphans> it's great having you lot about two hours north of me, cause I know exactly what the weather will be in the future :)

[09:28] < Chong> really? it's not in Manchester.

[09:28] < bcarlyon|laptop> lol

[09:29] < Chong> bcarlyon|laptop: I see.

[09:29] < orphans> for me it'll start raining at about 1, then stop at about half 1/2 and be sunny :D

[09:29] < bcarlyon|laptop> lol

[09:32] < Chong> orphans: sometimes, the weather is unpredictable ;)

[09:33] *** bcarlyon|laptop is over complicating his component, and keeps starting from scratch

[09:36] < Chong> bcarlyon|laptop: :-) don't overycomplex it. I believe that Michael just wants us to show our ability to use Axon to build a component and do some simple application with other kamaelia coponents.

[09:37] < bcarlyon|laptop> I think in a complex way which makes something simple difficult to devise

[09:38] < orphans> heh, I think in a simple way which makes something simple difficult to devise :)

[09:39] < bcarlyon|laptop> your drum code looks simple tho orphans

[09:39] < Chong> :-)

[09:39] *** bcarlyon|laptop printed it out and stuck it on the wall for inspiration

[09:40] < Chong> the world is so complex that we need to simplify it first and then we human can handle it.:-)

[09:40] < orphans> heh, my name in lights!

[09:41] < orphans> the code may look simple, but I did still manage to spend about three hours trying to get a midi port working, until I realised I was sending through the wrong one anyway...

[09:41] < bcarlyon|laptop> ha

[09:43] < Chong> I also got some idea after seeing orphans' code. It's a good example if you are not sure what we are supposed to do.

[09:44] < orphans> heh, it is quite silly really. It's interesting to see what you can make with so little code though

[09:45] < Chong> orphans: for beginners, everything is not simple. You need to be prepared for mistakes or errors. but I think you may know kamaelia better than me.

[09:46] < Chong> orphans: yes. this is the power of component-based programming, the big advantage of kamaelia.

[09:47] < Chong> ---Do more with less codes.

[09:47] < orphans> I dunno, like MS- always says writing good code in Kamaelia is a lot about getting your head around the way the component system works. It's definitely a different way of thinking to regular oo programming

[09:47] Reply: Hi, I'm a bot. I've been put here to answer faq's and log the channel. You can find the logs at http://yeoldeclue.com/logs/ . Yes, the person(s) you asked for may be around. The best way to ask a q is to just ask it since

[09:47] Reply: the person(s) you asked for reads the logs. Idle on the channel if you want and answer and don't get an immediate one. In the meantime this page is the sort of questions we'd ask you to improve your app are here:

[09:47] Reply: http://yeoldeclue.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.cgi?rm=viewpost&nodeid=1206709783 . Regarding applications we will be discussing applications (and maybe asking for improvements) until April 7th or 8th - remember no news may well be good news

[09:47] < Lawouach> orphans, indeed

[09:48] < Lawouach> It took me a while to get used to it though

[09:48] < orphans> theres probably a book in there somewhere: "Zen and the Art of Programming in Kamaelia"

[09:48] < Lawouach> So formatted to the OO way of thinking

[09:48] < Lawouach> It was real fresh air when it clicked :)

[09:48] < Chong> orphans: totally agree

[09:49] < orphans> I think it's really helping me having spent the last six months or so doing a lot of stuff in a patching environment

[09:49] < orphans> took me ages to work out just doing basic stuff in there, but when you get your head round it it becomes quite intuitive

[09:50] < orphans> it's a very similar paradigm

[09:50] < Chong> yes. think in Kamaelia :-)

[09:51] < orphans> heh, and I probably write pretty cruddy oo code anyway :D

[09:52] < Chong> yes. It is more intuitive, like organs in human body, components in computer hardware.

[09:53] < Chong> :-)

[10:00] < bcarlyon|laptop> this is the first time ive really done object orinetated programing and the first time with python.....

[10:01] < orphans> bcarlyon|laptop, how are you finding it? (other than the mild/extreme frustration of learning languages)

[10:02] < bcarlyon|laptop> the miniaxon was ok, but this component writing is difficult

[10:02] < bcarlyon|laptop> doesnt help i havnt got a clear idea of what i want to write as a simple component

[10:02] < orphans> what are you trying to get it to do?

[10:02] < orphans> ahh :)

[10:03] < bcarlyon|laptop> anywho where do you get pypm from, just typed your drum in and i dont have pypm on my system and i cant find it in synaptic (im on ubuntu)

[10:03] < bcarlyon|laptop> i might have had it but i broke ubuntu the yesterday and had to wipe and restart again

[10:03] < orphans> http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~harrison/code.html

[10:04] < orphans> you need something like hydrogen too, and a vague idea of your midi setup

[10:04] < bcarlyon|laptop> o

[10:04] < orphans> audio=nightmare on linux

[10:04] < orphans> generally anyway - it's getting better

[10:04] < Lawouach> I like ubuntu studio

[10:04] < Lawouach> helps quite a lot :)

[10:05] < orphans> i tried it out back when it was first released and wasn't that impressed - I thought stuff like demudi was a bit better

[10:05] < orphans> I'd imaging now UbuStu is pretty good

[10:05] < orphans> *imagine

[10:05] < Lawouach> well

[10:06] < Lawouach> it's not the most up to date or the most impressive of the audio targetted linux distro

[10:06] < Lawouach> but one the easiest to get

[10:06] < Lawouach> installed

[10:06] < Lawouach> and is quite polished

[10:06] < Lawouach> looking forward the next release

[10:06] < Lawouach> I had so much trouble Jack and my freebob before that

[10:06] < orphans> yeah - I thought on the first release it was just lacking a little polish really - all the integration of apps was a little bit raw

[10:06] < Lawouach> now I can use my FireWire solo with no issue :)

[10:07] < Lawouach> I agree

[10:07] < orphans> thats cool :)

[10:07] < Lawouach> they've been working on that I think

[10:07] < orphans> I'm still horribly tied to windows for audio though

[10:07] < Lawouach> well

[10:07] < bcarlyon|laptop> hmm PmError not acceptable as a boolean....

[10:07] < Lawouach> I have to resort to it quite often too

[10:07] < Chong> I think the core of writing components is to fully understand how generator works first.

[10:07] < orphans> ohh, bcarlyon|laptop, I know the fix for that

[10:07] < Lawouach> I was pleased to see Hydrogen on Windows though

[10:07] < Lawouach> I like that soft

[10:08] < orphans> yeah, it's nice

[10:08] < bcarlyon|laptop> cool :-) what is the fix?

[10:09] *** orphans finds it :)

[10:09] < orphans> in pypm.pyx change line 357 to while(Pm_Poll(self.midi) != pmNoError):

[10:10] < orphans> should compile OK then

[10:10] < bcarlyon|laptop> k

[10:10] < orphans> Lawouach, what do you use for everyday multitracking?

[10:10] < Lawouach> when I just need a quick recording I use audacity

[10:11] < Lawouach> if I need something more complex, I use Ardour

[10:11] < orphans> how is ardour these days - I haven't used it since the earliest 2.0 betas

[10:11] < bcarlyon|laptop> the fix got past that clitch but stopped with a gcc failed :-(

[10:11] < Lawouach> what is annoying on Linux is that lots of useful Vst plugins can't run on it

[10:11] < Lawouach> it does a decent job

[10:11] < Lawouach> The UI is sometimes clunky

[10:12] < Lawouach> but overall it's a good product

[10:12] < Lawouach> what are you using ?

[10:12] < bcarlyon|laptop> ah well, ill get back to my componentising...

[10:12] < orphans> tracktion for multitracking, and bidule for live stuff

[10:13] < orphans> yeah, I did really struggling the the ardour UI

[10:13] < orphans> coming from tracktion which is designed to be used by two year olds :)

[10:14] *** orphans should really install an ubuntu studio partition and have another look

[10:16] < Lawouach> wait for the new release that should be soon

[10:16] < bcarlyon|laptop> ubtuntu is about 20 days away for the new version

[10:16] < orphans> yeah, after exams :)

[10:18] < orphans> talking of which - I really ought to do a bit of work before lunch

[10:18] < orphans> in a bit guys :)

[10:18] < Lawouach> http://www.acoustica.com/mixcraft/ < -- orphans I have tried that one and it's quite cool

[10:18] < Lawouach> not well known but very easy to use

[10:18] *** orphans looks and procrastinates :)

[10:18] < bcarlyon|laptop> dang just remeber got a committee meeting for one of the societies later.....most annoying

[10:31] < MS-> "doesnt help i havnt got a clear idea of what i want to write as a simple component"

[10:31] < MS-> *that* is your problem, almost certainly.

[10:31] < MS-> (morning btw :) )

[10:31] < MS-> You can't write a program that you don't know what it should do

[10:31] < bcarlyon|laptop> indeed

[10:33] < Chong> MS: morning

[10:33] < Chong> MS-: have you got opportunity to see my codes?

[10:34] < MS-> Only just checking email - so I've seen it , but no more than seen it :)

[10:34] < Chong> MS-: no problem. If any problem with it, please let me know :-)

[10:35] < MS-> will do

[10:35] < Chong> thanks.

[10:51] < bcarlyon|laptop> I was going to write something which does xml feed discovery from a webpage html head element, but i can see how to access the webpage source in order to search for the links...

[10:56] *** bcarlyon|laptop thinks he just had a realisation....

[11:03] < bcarlyon|laptop> is \n the charcater for new line in python?

[11:03] *** bcarlyon|laptop has had a realiasation

[11:04] < Chong> You can use httplib of python or HTTP components of kamaelia http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/Components to do a http connection and fetch webpage.

[11:05] < bcarlyon|laptop> i know

[11:05] < Chong> is \n the charcater for new line in python? yes.

[11:05] < bcarlyon|laptop> i just coulnd get it to do what I wanted it to do :-0 and now i have....

[11:05] < Chong> great

[11:05] < Chong> Well done :-)

[11:07] *** bcarlyon|laptop gone hydra log hunting to find the better way to iteratte thru an array

[11:08] < bcarlyon|laptop> !logs

[11:08] < Chong> will go out for a walk.to enjoy the unusual sunshine. See you later, everyone.

[11:08] < bcarlyon|laptop> kamaeliabot, logs

[11:08] < bcarlyon|laptop> kamaeliabot, !logs

[11:09] < bcarlyon|laptop> ah (checks topic)

[11:09] *** Chong has parted #kamaelia

[11:18] *** bcarlyon|laptop couldnot find what he was looking for,

[11:18] < bcarlyon|laptop> i was looking for the proper way to iterate thru a list, can you remind me what you said MS-?

[11:22] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[11:23] < MS-> Your approach for iterating through a list was fine, but the idiomatic way is :

[11:23] < MS-> >>> x=range(5)

[11:23] < MS-> >>> x

[11:23] < MS-> [0, 1, 2, 3, 4]

[11:23] < MS-> >>> for i in x:

[11:23] < MS-> ... print i

[11:23] < MS-> ...

[11:23] < MS-> 0

[11:23] < MS-> 1

[11:23] < MS-> 2

[11:23] < MS-> 3

[11:23] < MS-> 4

[11:23] < MS-> Oh, incidentally:

[11:23] < bcarlyon|laptop> hmm?

[11:23] < vmlemon_> Hi

[11:24] < bcarlyon|laptop> thanks MS- :-)

[11:24] < bcarlyon|laptop> afternoon vmlemon

[11:24] < MS-> >>> f = { "a": [0, 1, 2, 3, 4] }

[11:24] < MS-> >>> id(f)

[11:24] < MS-> 134771004

[11:24] < MS-> >>> id(f["a"])

[11:24] < MS-> 134769324

[11:25] < MS-> >>> f["a"].append(5)

[11:25] < MS-> >>> f["a"]

[11:25] < MS-> [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

[11:25] < MS-> >>> f

[11:25] < MS-> {'a': [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5]}

[11:25] < MS-> >>> id(f["a"])

[11:25] < MS-> 134769324

[11:25] < MS-> >>> id(f)

[11:25] < MS-> 134771004

[11:25] < bcarlyon|laptop> what does that mean?

[11:25] < MS-> means you don't need to do

[11:25] < MS-> L = f["a"]

[11:25] < MS-> L.append(5)

[11:25] < MS-> f["a"] = L

[11:25] *** bcarlyon|laptop is now confuzzeled...

[11:26] < bcarlyon|laptop> o, in ref to my miniaxon?

[11:26] < MS-> you can just do it in one go

[11:26] < MS-> yep

[11:27] < vmlemon_> Hi MS-

[11:30] < MS-> vmlemon_: hi

[11:49] < vmlemon_> kamaeliabot: dance

[11:49] Reply: does the macarena

[11:53] *** bcarlyon|laptop just spent too long to realise a dictionary is an associative list.....

[11:55] < MS-> Well, realising it is better than not :)

[11:56] < bcarlyon|laptop> i did look in the index of my book for associative list....not joy then thought hang on, dictionary.....

[11:56] *** bcarlyon|laptop hasnt finished reading the book, time is ssoo short atm

[11:59] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[12:06] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[12:11] < bcarlyon|laptop> yay finsihed my component :-)

[12:11] < vmlemon_> Yay

[12:11] < vmlemon_> And it works as planned?

[12:12] < MS-> cool

[12:12] < bcarlyon|laptop> yip it discovers feeds :-)

[12:13] < bcarlyon|laptop> when/if it get implements for something its return would need tweaking i imagine....

[12:13] < bcarlyon|laptop> o and i got an email from google my google app platform app got accepted so i can play with their stuff :-)

[12:16] < bcarlyon|laptop> posted to the app now :-) put my code in pastebin, should of done that for the miniaxon, forgot :-) have posted it to the pastebin :-0 all done :-)

[12:17] < MS-> have you posted a link anywhere?

[12:17] < MS-> :)

[12:17] < vmlemon_> Kamaelia-App Platform integration waiting in the wings? ;)

[12:17] < bcarlyon|laptop> on the application yes

[12:17] < bcarlyon|laptop> as a comment

[12:17] < MS-> ta

[12:17] < MS-> :)

[12:18] < bcarlyon|laptop> im about for the next hour before i have to got for a union society meeting.....

[12:18] < bcarlyon|laptop> ive left a lot of comments in the code from when i was testing the component :-)

[12:19] < bcarlyon|laptop> http://barrycarlyon.pastebin.com

[12:19] < MS-> Comments are good

[12:19] < bcarlyon|laptop> :-) indeed

[12:19] < MS-> leaving debugging in as comments can also be good since it shows where you had to think :)

[12:20] < MS-> sounds silly perhaps but its useful

[12:20] < bcarlyon|laptop> i agree it is useful

[12:20] < bcarlyon|laptop> espc. if you come back to the module to extend it or modify it....

[12:20] < MS-> So, do you give this a random web page & it looks for the associated RSS feed, yes?

[12:21] < bcarlyon|laptop> it returns the first application+rss/xml it finds

[12:21] < bcarlyon|laptop> but it puts all of them into a list, so later i can extend the module to return the x'th found item

[12:21] < MS-> cool

[12:21] < bcarlyon|laptop> currently it returns 'void' if there is no feed :-)

[12:22] < bcarlyon|laptop> gonna watch dr who on iplayer now so back in 50 mins :-)

[12:22] < MS-> You didn't know python a week or so, yes?

[12:22] < MS-> cool

[12:22] < bcarlyon|laptop> yes ms

[12:22] < MS-> leave you to it :)

[12:22] < MS-> cool, thanks!

[12:22] < bcarlyon|laptop> i can still talk :-)

[12:22] < bcarlyon|laptop> using iplayer on ubuntu :-)

[12:23] < MS-> nah, it's a good ep - I'll leave you to enjoy :)

[12:23] < bcarlyon|laptop> ty :-)

[12:24] < bcarlyon|laptop> its a bit skittery on my pc tho.....

[12:24] *** petruccigp has joined #kamaelia

[12:30] < bcarlyon|laptop> But yes I didnt know any python till i started doing the miniaxon tutorial and read the first chapter of the learning python book 2nd edition :-)

[12:36] < MS-> cool

[12:40] *** Lawouach has joined #kamaelia

[12:49] < MS-> Lawouach: Just sent yourself & matt an email regarding apps. Many students have just mailed me back their code, so I'll put it somewhere yourself & matt can see

[12:50] < MS-> Unsurprisingly, not all students have responded, and therefore self-selected themselves out the running (IMO)

[12:50] < MS-> (because it makes it impossible to guess how well they'll do over the summer)

[12:51] *** bcarlyon|laptop apologies for being late :-)

[12:52] < MS-> bcarlyon|laptop: It was there by the time I was reviewing the code from people, so that's what really matters. After all, this wasn't about being late/on time, but rather fitting in with the practicalities of "when can this be reviewed"

[12:52] < MS-> :)

[12:52] < bcarlyon|laptop> :-)

[12:55] < Lawouach> MS-, I haven't received your email yet.

[12:59] < MS-> no

[12:59] < MS-> problem

[12:59] < MS-> (gah, I hadn't hit send)

[12:59] < MS-> d'oh

[13:01] < Lawouach> ahem

[13:04] *** bcarlyon|laptop gets the slapping stick handy....

[13:04] *** vmlemon_ has joined #kamaelia

[13:06] < MS-> OK, I've ranked what I've seen now & will wait for feedback.

[13:09] < Lawouach> I assume you have now hit Send right?

[13:13] < bcarlyon|laptop> What did you think of my code MS-?

[13:20] < MS-> Lawouach: yep I've sent it

[13:20] < MS-> bcarlyon|laptop: It looked good - followed spec. Had issues, but given experience of less than a week more than understandable

[13:21] < bcarlyon|laptop> Ah cool :-)

[13:21] < MS-> The example component was interesting and shows promise. I can make suggestions, but that wasn't really the point :)

[13:21] < bcarlyon|laptop> :-)

[13:22] < bcarlyon|laptop> Id aprecaite any feedback on it, if you could add it as a comment to the application :-)

[13:22] < MS-> Also, part of the application process which is incredibly implicit in all of this is "how well does the student relate to feedback and discussion", given my tenet "all software has bugs" (which includes mine by definition)

[13:22] < MS-> Will do

[13:23] < bcarlyon|laptop> all software has bugs = no its a new feature (perl)

[13:23] < MS-> heh

[13:23] < bcarlyon|laptop> lol

[13:23] < MS-> Definition of a correct program in perl: "It gets the job done before the boss fires you"

[13:23] < bcarlyon|laptop> ha

[13:23] < MS-> (learning perl, one of the early editions)

[13:23] < MS-> Perl is a very practical language from that sort of perspective

[13:24] < MS-> OK, I'm off out for a while - many thanks to everyone who's provided code/comments/etc

[13:24] < bcarlyon|laptop> No problem have a good afternoon

[13:41] < petruccigp> I sent you my answer and didn't get a confirmation email back, please make sure you have it...

[13:42] < bcarlyon|laptop> sent who?

[13:45] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[13:54] *** bcarlyon|laptop off to meetings back later :-)

[14:15] *** bcarlyon|away is now known as bcarlyon|lsrfm

[14:18] *** petruccigp has joined #kamaelia

[14:39] *** Chong has joined #kamaelia

[14:39] < Chong> Good afternoon.

[14:40] < vmlemon_> Hi

[14:41] < Chong> vmlemon_: how it goes

[14:41] < vmlemon_> OK

[14:42] < vmlemon_> Just playing with Drupal 6, at the moment

[14:43] < Chong> good. Any thing new or interesting in Drupal 6?

[14:46] < vmlemon_> Not sure if I'd migrate my site over to it, since they haven't ported certain modules I use

[14:46] < vmlemon_> There are various useful things in it like automated update checking, and built-in OpenID support

[14:47] < Chong> I see. Thanks for your information, vmlemon_.

[14:48] < Chong> it sounds interesting.

[14:49] < vmlemon_> Not sure if it's just my hardware configuration, but it seems slower than 5.x

[14:49] < vmlemon_> Could probably play with the PHP settings though, to see if they'll make a difference

[14:51] < Chong> it's not suprising to me. More functions means consuming more system resource.

[14:55] < vmlemon_> Page loading takes ages, although there probably is a trivial way to reduce the time taken (short of throwing more RAM at it)

[14:58] < vmlemon_> Probably be faster on a dedicated machine for server apps, though

[14:58] < vmlemon_> *would be

[14:59] < Chong> should be. it may be better to turn off some unused modules to save system resource.

[15:19] *** MS- notes he's sent an email to the same list of students as he sent last week, with a question, which looks easy to answer

[15:19] < MS-> (and is easy really if people don't go to Abilene)

[15:20] < MS-> (abilene paradox that is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox )

[15:21] < MS-> j_baker can't really avoid Abilene of course

[15:21] < MS-> But that's more literal for him than metaphorical

[15:22] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[15:26] < Chong> Hi, MS-

[15:26] < MS-> hi

[15:26] < Chong> I just saw your e-mail.

[15:26] < MS-> cool

[15:27] < Chong> I'm think about the answer. It seems there are a lot things to say:-)

[15:27] < MS-> k

[15:28] < Chong> Have you checked my codes yet, MS-?

[15:28] < MS-> I've had a look through them - if you're interested I can give you feedback through the web app?

[15:29] < Chong> That's great. I'd like to hear your feedback for improvement.

[15:29] < MS-> cool

[15:29] < MS-> will do then

[15:29] < Chong> waiting...:-)

[15:30] < Chong> And with thanks.

[15:30] < MS-> np

[15:30] < Chong> cool

[15:39] *** orphans has joined #kamaelia

[15:40] *** NcTrun has joined #kamaelia

[15:49] *** MS- wanders off for more of the afternoon.

[15:50] < MS-> cya all later

[15:50] *** MS- has parted #kamaelia

[15:51] < Chong> see you

[16:05] < petruccigp> mmm... I am also thinking about what to put in the email

[16:05] < petruccigp> I don't want to extend to much, but there is actually a lot to say :)

[16:05] *** orphans worries :s

[16:06] < orphans> but what if the brutally honest answer isn't the right one :D

[16:06] < petruccigp> hehehe

[16:06] < petruccigp> it's a bet you have to take!

[16:07] < orphans> I'm not much of a betting man :)

[16:07] < petruccigp> I just wrote what I thought about and just sent it as if... too much thought will only make it worse

[16:08] < orphans> petruccigp, what project are you applying to do?

[16:08] < petruccigp> it's just like in American Idol and those shows. You never know what they are looking for

[16:08] < orphans> heh, I definitely can't sing...

[16:09] *** vmlemon_ can't either

[16:09] < orphans> although perhaps serenading is the answer?

[16:09] < petruccigp> the video conferencing tool

[16:09] < orphans> mm, would be cool

[16:09] < petruccigp> you?

[16:09] < orphans> you got an idea of what libraries you'd use?

[16:10] < orphans> a networked music sequencer?

[16:10] < vmlemon_> Kamaelia-based VoIP app, anyone?

[16:10] < orphans> vmlemon_, already exists doesn't it?

[16:10] < petruccigp> mmmm nice! that was my second choice

[16:10] < vmlemon_> Not sure

[16:10] < orphans> think whiteboard does it

[16:18] < Davbo> Hmm, you can talk over whiteboard but there isn't anything like SIP support there from what i've seen

[16:19] < Davbo> not much of a voip client

[16:19] < orphans> ahh, I'm probably using VoIP a bit freely here - in my mind it's talking over the internet :)

[16:20] < Davbo> hehe, yeah there are many standards anyway

[16:20] < orphans> all this new fangled technology - baffling :)

[16:21] < Davbo> Skype is certainly VoIP but that protocol is closed-source, imo makes it a poor VoIP client

[16:24] < Davbo> a set of VoIP components would be a nice addition to Kamaelia IMO

[16:30] < vmlemon_> I remember reading something about a Chinese team that reverse-engineered Skype and developed a compatible client

[16:32] < vmlemon_> Does it change meaning if people were to play music during a VoIP session, or if it's used to transmit pet calls? ;)

[16:33] < vmlemon_> Bark-over-IP/Music-over-IP?

[16:47] < Davbo> lol :)

[17:09] < vmlemon_> Ugh, the new AJAXy Drupal block addition/removal tool is awkward and slow

[17:09] < vmlemon_> and it isn't obvious at first how it actually functions

[17:11] < vmlemon_> (you have to drag the item up and down several lists (using a little crosshair icon), and it's tricky to tell if you've actually disabled or enabled a module, unlike 4.x-5.x's checkbox system)

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[18:57] *** vmlemon__ is getting annoyed with the stupid inline censorware proxy his phone operator has put in place (it happens to block the Google Cache, the phpBB.com website, and various parts of the Forum Nokia site)

[19:01] *** bcarlyon|laptop loves a good open ended question....

[19:03] < vmlemon__> kamaeliabot: danc

[19:04] < bcarlyon|laptop> danc

[19:04] < vmlemon__> kamaeliabot: dance

[19:04] Reply: does the macarena

[19:04] < bcarlyon|laptop> o dance lol

[19:04] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[19:04] < bcarlyon|laptop> You answered the question vmlemon?

[19:05] < vmlemon_> Damn typo

[19:05] < bcarlyon|laptop> Im pondering if there is anything else to add to mine....

[19:05] < vmlemon_> Aah, I didn't know there was a question...

[19:05] < bcarlyon|laptop> check your email/gmail

[19:05] < bcarlyon|laptop> ms emailed one out

[19:06] < vmlemon_> You could add support for Atom feeds...

[19:06] < bcarlyon|laptop> do you know what my project is?

[19:06] *** bcarlyon|laptop 's componet is slightly realted to it

[19:07] < vmlemon_> The feed reader?

[19:07] < bcarlyon|laptop> my componet is a feed discoverer from a given website url

[19:07] < vmlemon_> Aah

[19:07] < bcarlyon|laptop> my project relates to the whiteboard app to export import data using xml

[19:07] < vmlemon_> Interesting

[19:08] < bcarlyon|laptop> so my component just checks for application/rss+xml, i dont have much exprrice with atom yet, but should be easy to learn

[19:08] < bcarlyon|laptop> i didnt know ANY python before starting miniaxon

[19:09] < bcarlyon|laptop> so its a steepish learnig curve, my speciality :-)

[19:09] < vmlemon_> Not bad, given the limited amount of time available ^_^

[19:09] < bcarlyon|laptop> thanks :-)

[19:11] < bcarlyon|laptop> after a while python and kamealia, just clicked, so my component came together quite quick :-)

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[19:15] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

[19:17] < vmlemon_> Just caught your last comment in the logs before I was disconnected

[19:20] < bcarlyon|laptop> lol

[19:21] < bcarlyon|laptop> which is the last one, the one about clicking?

[19:21] < vmlemon_> Yes

[19:21] < bcarlyon|laptop> Heres the question ms emailed : How do you feel your project proposal advances/relates to these goals -

[19:21] < bcarlyon|laptop> both in the short term, but also in terms of its longer term aims?

[19:21] < bcarlyon|laptop> he copied in some of the GSoC goals

[19:22] < bcarlyon|laptop> And I just posted my answer, being slightly drunk makes it easier to write sometimes, not long back from a society mini social :-)

[19:22] < vmlemon_> I don't think I got one, since I never gave MS- my e-mail address/registered for GSoC...

[19:24] < Davbo> I think bcarlyon|laptop was under the impression you're applying vmlemon_

[19:24] < bcarlyon|laptop> o I didnt realise vmlemon_ was not a GSoC student.....

[19:25] < vmlemon_> Heh, OK

[19:25] < vmlemon_> Nay, I've just got a load of Japanese spam

[19:25] *** bcarlyon|laptop wonders who vmlemon actually is....

[19:25] < bcarlyon|laptop> the only spam my gmail gets is some kamaelia list stuff.....

[19:26] < vmlemon_> I seem to get deluged with the stuff, for some reason

[19:26] < bcarlyon|laptop> So who are you vmlemon_ in respect to kamaelia?

[19:27] < vmlemon_> I'm merely interested in the project, happened to download it and played with it, and idle in here sometimes

[19:27] < bcarlyon|laptop> ah cool :-)

[19:30] < vmlemon_> As for how I found it, I happened to stumble upon the BBC Open Source Projects page after reading something to do with Dirac, and followed from there

[19:30] < bcarlyon|laptop> nice

[19:33] < vmlemon_> Is this the first time you've done SoC?

[19:34] < bcarlyon|laptop> Yip

[19:36] < vmlemon_> I'd take part if my coding skills were poor to non-existant (depending on the language, and the phase of the moon)... ;)

[19:36] < vmlemon_> *weren't

[19:36] < bcarlyon|laptop> my python skills were no existant until i did the miniaxon tutorial.....

[19:54] < bcarlyon|laptop> I just heard Mark Spate is dead....he will be sorely missed....

[20:09] < vmlemon_> How long did it take for you to do the MiniAxon? (Assuming that you already had some sort of programming experience)

[20:11] < bcarlyon|laptop> two and a half days on and off

[20:14] < bcarlyon|laptop> i usaually write websites using php, tho i am a dab hand at perl

[20:16] < vmlemon_> It was "learn as you go along"?

[20:16] < bcarlyon|laptop> indeed

[20:16] < bcarlyon|laptop> I learn best that way :-)

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[20:54] < Chong> Good evening, everyone.

[20:54] < vmlemon_> Hi

[20:55] < Chong> vmlemon_: Hi, have you finally settled down the problem of Drupal 6?

[20:55] < vmlemon_> I ended up clearing Drupal's content cache and restarting Apache2, and performance seems fine now

[20:58] < Chong> That's a good news. it may be better to set up Drupal of cleaning the cache periodically.

[20:58] < vmlemon_> I've done it again, and it's pretty speedy now

[20:59] < vmlemon_> Not sure why, even though I've done very little but install some integration modules

[20:59] < vmlemon_> It seems as fast as 5.x

[20:59] < vmlemon_> I just hope that they haven't developed the Windows Sydrome whilst developing it, this time ;)

[21:01] < vmlemon_> It seems like a big regression, since I don't remember ever having to clear caches out whilst using Drupal

[21:01] < Chong> Hope so.:-)

[21:01] < vmlemon_> Unless it's a "new feature" for 6.x

[21:04] < vmlemon_> I like Drupal, and I'd hate for them to spoil it by breaking/regressing things that worked well for the sake of it, unless they have a good reason

[21:06] < vmlemon_> Hah, [22:06] * insanity slides a whole bunch of last year's, now all dry cookies, down the crappy decorated and totally falling apart bar to dangle and shouts: Happy whatever -.-

[21:06] < Chong> I may be not new, but may use more caches in this version.

[21:07] < vmlemon_> Good point

[21:07] < vmlemon_> I did read something when installing a specific module about clearing the cache after installing it

[21:07] < Chong> http://drupal.org/drupal-6.0-beta1

[21:07] < Chong> "We also took a lot of care to improve the performance of this release: more data is cached..."

[21:08] < vmlemon_> It's up to 6.2, so I don't know what they've done since the beta, although I never tested the beta or the very first 6.x release

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[23:08] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[23:08] < MS-> evening

[23:09] < MS-> Just a note for people following this, a fair amount of our ranking over the past few days has been based on the hope that our requested number of slots would be the amount of slots we get allocated in the final analysis.

[23:11] < MS-> However in the latest allocation the amount allocated our way is about 1/3 of those I emailed for further information. There's not a lot we can do about that. I can/will plead our case, but there are >170 orgs who will feel the same way - so it will be tough.

[23:12] < MS-> (It's exactly the same with large orgs as well as small btw - I'm on the mentor app for the PSF as well - though mainly to look for "anything there that looks more relevant here" - and I know how many slots they asked for vs what they've been allocated)

[23:17] < Chong> Good evening, MS-

[23:17] < Davbo> Heh. that's an impressive sum of cash.

[23:17] < MS-> evening

[23:17] < Chong> A lot of information :-)

[23:18] < MS-> Davbo: Indeed

[23:18] < MS-> Davbo: I'm continually amazed by the fact that they do this, and how they manage to channel it so effectively

[23:18] < MS-> Which largely boils down to trust at the end of the day

[23:19] < Davbo> not to mention google.org's happenings

[23:19] < Davbo> Which appears to be a separate pot of cash

[23:19] < MS-> Yep

[23:23] < Davbo> Who would have guessed that such philanthropy would come from a startup like Google 20yrs ago

[23:25] < Davbo> Oh I did get that email!

[23:25] < Davbo> I've been coding for about 10 hours today not even seen it

[23:25] < Davbo> well debugging really

[23:26] < MS-> Cool

[23:26] < MS-> What have you been debugging/coding?

[23:26] < MS-> OOI?

[23:26] < Davbo> couple of things

[23:26] < Davbo> mainly the N-Queens thing

[23:26] < Davbo> Apparently -one- person has got it to work

[23:27] < Davbo> I think they've just wrote their own search algorithm when we're supposed to use one supplied though

[23:27] < bcarlyon|nub> Evening MS- :-)

[23:27] < MS-> (incidentally, answers to that mail don't need to be long, but should be honest, and should be sent back ASAP)

[23:27] < MS-> bcarlyon|nub: I got yours - thanks :)

[23:27] < bcarlyon|nub> Coolio :-)

[23:27] < Davbo> I'll have to do it sometime tommorrow now

[23:28] *** bcarlyon|nub is now known as bcarlyon|laptop

[23:28] < Davbo> deadline is tomorrow 11am for this thing :(

[23:28] < MS-> I see

[23:28] < Chong> MS-: have you seen my reply? Sorry that it is a bit long.

[23:29] < Davbo> Mine finds a correct solution, just some other bugs that seem to be in the search algorithm that i cannot edit so I'll be okay

[23:29] < Davbo> So there is apparently just me and one other person who can get it work (to a degree)

[23:30] < Davbo> out of 70

[23:30] *** Davbo has 5 people trying to get answers from him on MSN

[23:30] < MS-> Chong: It's currently greylisted and will be received soon enough

[23:30] < Chong> Davbo: that's pretty cool

[23:30] < MS-> Though if you like, you can resend to my gmail account

[23:31] < MS-> Davbo: This may be a moment where the search terms "n-queens" and "prolog" may be of use

[23:31] < MS-> (may)

[23:31] < Chong> Thanks.

[23:32] < Davbo> I have a 300 line solution in Java. Think i could crack it in 50 lines of Prolog lol

[23:32] < MS-> heh :)

[23:32] < MS-> cool

[23:34] < Davbo> so that we stick to the algorithm given to us they provided the method stubs and if the -actual- solution involves another method i think i'll explode

[23:35] < MS-> Barry, Davbo - which universities are you at again? Leeds & Sheffield respectively IIRC ?

[23:35] < bcarlyon|laptop> yes

[23:35] < bcarlyon|laptop> i am at leeds (proper)

[23:35] < Davbo> Yeah, University of*

[23:35] < Chong> MS-: just forwarded my reply to your gmail box

[23:36] < MS-> Chong: ta :)

[23:38] < Davbo> I have 4 separate "solutions which work logically but don't really" in nice commented out sections which i've left for him to read

[23:38] < Davbo> he might learn something

[23:39] < MS-> cool

[23:40] < Davbo> (as you can probably tell i'm pissed off after working on it for >10hours) :P

[23:40] < MS-> I remember that I'd often go off and get a cheap take away pizza (from Babylon for Chong's benefit ;) ) when that happened to me

[23:41] < MS-> Protein and carbs are good mind food.

[23:41] < MS-> ;)

[23:41] < MS-> (honest)

[23:41] < Davbo> MS-, have you got a preliminary number for the apps then?

[23:41] *** Davbo has consumed too much red bull

[23:41] < MS-> Davbo: Yes, but I'd rather not release it at this stage, since I would hope it would go up

[23:42] < Davbo> Yeah, lets hope so

[23:43] < Chong> MS-: sorry for that :P

[23:45] < Chong> hope so too;)

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[23:54] < Davbo> When i debug something i always make a variable "foo" to test things with

[23:54] < Davbo> I have foo1-foo7 in this program now lol

[23:55] < MS-> heh

[23:56] < Davbo> it's so annoying. I know that the problem isn't here in my code, but there is a tiny chance it is so I can't stop till i convince myself

[23:58] < Chong> Alternately, you can try to find the problem in other codes :-)

[23:58] < Chong> It would exclude the possibility

[23:59] < Davbo> The search algorithm we were given is .class (compiled Java)

[23:59] < Davbo> so I can't look at it