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[08:28] < Chong> Good morning, everyone.

[08:30] < orphans> morning

[09:25] < vmlemon> Hi

[09:30] < orphans> mornin

[09:34] < vmlemon> I've uploaded some screenshots of the S60 Python environment, if anyone's curious to http://house404.co.uk/screenshots/

[09:35] < vmlemon> (took them with a handy utility I found)

[09:37] < vmlemon> I forgot to take the obligatory "Hello World!" one, though

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[10:11] < bcarlyon> Morning all :-)

[10:11] < orphans> morning

[10:12] *** orphans notes that all I've said since 9.30 is morning to three different people

[10:12] < orphans> hows it going everyone :)

[10:12] < bcarlyon> Hmm this is supposed to be running in a screen session but its not working....

[10:12] < bcarlyon> Im good how are you orphans ?

[10:13] < orphans> struggling to understand magnetocrystalline anisotropy. But otherwise good :)

[10:13] < bcarlyon> Nice magents and crystals...

[10:13] < orphans> it's pretty horrible - I understand the broad strokes but the detail is killer

[10:15] < orphans> makes you sound awful clever when you say magnetocrystalline anisotropy to people though - I try to drop it into conversation in case people overhear and think I'm awesome :)

[10:15] < bcarlyon> Lol.

[10:15] < orphans> j/k btw, I just read that back to myself :D

[10:16] < bcarlyon> Really? If I was doing something with a long name, I would probably drop it it...

[10:16] < bcarlyon> Not that often, but then everyone I know knows what I do.

[10:17] < orphans> I remember once at a club my mate got talking to a girl, who was later overheard talking to one of her mates saying (and I quote) "he seemed like quite a nice guy, but than he told me he did physics. I was like 'what are you doing talking to me!'"

[10:18] < orphans> evidently not the best thing to drop into conversation :)

[10:18] < bcarlyon> Really, not all physicists are boring, really?

[10:18] < bcarlyon> I enjoyed phyiscs, hence completed it at ALevel.

[10:19] *** bcarlyon is reading the Python Book.

[10:19] < orphans> I'm very regretting it as a degree choice now. So much work to do :)

[10:19] < bcarlyon> I can imagine.

[10:20] < orphans> ahh well, at the end of it all I'll have erm, a nice piece of paper and a strong desire to never do anything to do with it ever again

[10:21] < bcarlyon> What do you plan to do after Uni?

[10:21] < bcarlyon> And what year & uni are you at?

[10:21] *** bcarlyon is now known as bcarlyon|lsr

[10:21] *** bcarlyon|lsr is now known as bcarlyon|lsrfm

[10:22] < orphans> i'm revising for my finals at the moment. Applied for a masters next year in Creative Technologies - it's like an arts/sciences crossover course

[10:23] < orphans> oh, and at leicester

[10:23] < orphans> where are you at?

[10:24] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> First Year New Media at Leeds Uni, changed from electrical engineering

[10:25] < orphans> i always though ee looked interesting but far too hard :) New Media sounds interesting though - what sort of stuff do you do?

[10:26] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> EE was a little too difficult, too much math that I can do but I cant get it down on paper in an exam....

[10:26] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> New Media, we make adverts, websites, films, Flash, all sorts, its good fun...

[10:27] < orphans> heh, atm my notes have a lot of lines which say "Hard maths (eqn 3.14-3.21)"

[10:27] < orphans> cool

[10:27] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> rofl

[10:27] < orphans> learn them later :)

[10:28] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> and hope you get an equation sheet in the exam...

[10:28] < orphans> yeah, it'll be mainly about what equations I get given to start with

[10:29] < orphans> hopefully I can pick up enough marks purely on the theory then learn a couple of derivations for luck

[10:29] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> indeed

[10:31] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> I've never been to Leicester, how is it?

[10:32] < orphans> it's alright, kinda standard midlands town-ey

[10:33] < orphans> really multicultural which is cool - means theres quite a diverse range of stuff on

[10:33] < orphans> i guess leeds is similar in that way

[10:33] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> Pretty much

[10:34] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> I spend most of my time in the Student Radio Station, im in charge of the website, and since ive been here the longest know the most about the systems/desk,

[10:35] < orphans> cool. I've done a bit of student radio this year - it's a good laugh

[10:36] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> Indeed, whats the staion called, I should know as regional rep for the sra, i just cant remeber off hand.

[10:36] < orphans> lush fm

[10:36] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> I know demon is demontford, thats in leciseter

[10:36] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> ah Lush

[10:36] < orphans> yeah

[10:36] < orphans> im applying for the masters at dmu

[10:37] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> ool

[10:37] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> Cool*

[10:37] < orphans> the best thing about lush is that it should really be called lusr, but the acronym is very bad :)

[10:37] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> lol

[11:02] < vmlemon> Leeds University Student Radio?

[11:06] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> Indeed LSRfm.com

[11:06] < vmlemon> Yay for bad rendering engines

[11:06] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> bad rendering engines?

[11:06] < vmlemon> in web browsers

[11:06] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> what engine you using?

[11:07] < vmlemon> It's WebKit based

[11:07] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> last time i checked the site in browsershots it was all good :-)

[11:07] *** bcarlyon|lsrfm does the website of LSRfm.com

[11:07] < vmlemon> http://house404.co.uk/screenshots/DaZjorz-Paster-1.png and http://house404.co.uk/screenshots/DaZjorz-Paster-2.png if anyone wants to see the horrible mess it makes of a site that uses CSS a lot

[11:08] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> lol

[11:09] < vmlemon> Makes IE look good :|

[11:09] < vmlemon> ;)

[11:10] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> Hand held?

[11:10] < vmlemon> Yes

[11:10] < vmlemon> Not sure of the resolution, but the screenshot makes it look tiny

[11:10] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> lol

[11:11] < vmlemon> Still, I'd expect it to be a lot less mangled, and it'd help if I didn't have to scroll horizontally like mad to find the submission form

[11:11] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> indeed

[11:12] < vmlemon> Probably the fault of whoever designed either the page or the browser

[11:12] < vmlemon> ...

[11:17] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> lo

[11:17] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> l

[11:18] < vmlemon> Good job it isn't chock full of JavaScript, since it ends up slowing the browser to a crawl and crashing it

[11:19] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> You talking about lsr? or that dodgy css site?

[11:19] < vmlemon> The dodgy CSS site

[11:19] < vmlemon> Haven't tested the LSR one on it yet

[11:19] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> coolio

[11:21] < vmlemon> o.O http://www.zombo.com/

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[12:20] < vmlemon> Hi LawAtWork

[12:20] < LawAtWork> heya

[12:29] *** vmlemon is trying to figure out Python at the moment

[12:32] *** bcarlyon|lsrfm has the Learning Python book out of the Library

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[13:23] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

[13:23] < MS-> greetings

[13:23] < vmlemon> Hi

[13:23] *** MS- wonders if vmlemon has done an invasion of he body snatchers on barry

[13:24] < vmlemon> o.O

[13:24] < MS-> :)

[13:24] *** vmlemon is puzzled

[13:24] < MS-> There's often 2-3 of your nicks here, but right nw there's just one of you and 3 of barry :)

[13:24] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> ewwww

[13:24] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> Rofl

[13:24] < MS-> Maybe its a take over big

[13:24] < MS-> s/big/bid

[13:25] < vmlemon> Nah, I'm not IRCing from my phone at the moment

[13:25] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> 3 being me here in LSR office, one on Ubuntu, one on the laptop, both laptop and ubuntu are in my room....

[13:25] < vmlemon> I'm using my SSH session

[13:25] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> muhahahahahahhahahahh!

[13:25] < MS-> :)

[13:26] < vmlemon> The bit in the log about the names of various projects made for interesting/insightful reading, earlier

[13:26] < MS-> I see :)

[13:28] < MS-> I hate backronyms, I like google-able names and if I can't find a sensible name, I'll pick a silly one (hence my primary domain for stuff is thwackety)

[13:28] < vmlemon> Aah

[13:28] *** vmlemon sucks at naming stuff

[13:28] < MS-> (thwackety is incredibly hard for some cultures to pronounce

[13:29] < MS-> apparently a few don't thave a "th" or "w" sound, let alone end with =ety

[13:29] < vmlemon> I know that "r" and "l" is a fun one for certain cultures

[13:29] < MS-> yep

[13:29] < vmlemon> (i.e. the Japanese)

[13:31] < vmlemon> I wonder how ze Germans would deal with it ;)

[13:35] < orphans> hey MS-

[13:35] < MS-> heya

[13:36] < MS-> vmlemon: No idea :)

[13:38] < vmlemon> Hah, "Expected or Actual

[13:38] < vmlemon> Ratification When hell freezes

[13:38] < vmlemon> over, if engineers have

[13:38] < vmlemon> any say in the matter"

[13:38] < vmlemon> Damn Acrobat Reader

[14:16] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> Hey MS- , just wondering if you have had the chance to look at my application yet?

[14:30] < MS-> I've had a look, I can't give any feedback until this evening though

[14:34] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> Coolio :-)

[14:39] < bcarlyon|lsrfm> Thats good to know

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[15:00] < j_baker> MS- I have a question for you. In the WSGI PEP, the example sets the input environment variable to stdin. Is that what a WSGI server would typically do or is it best to create your own stream?

[15:00] Reply: Hi, I'm a bot. I've been put here to answer faq's and log the channel. You can find the logs at http://yeoldeclue.com/logs/ Please don't ask 'any mentors here' since I'm logging for them. Yes, there is. If you just ask you question

[15:00] Reply: or post your idea, you may get a response - either from a mentor or fellow student or from someone reading the logs.

[15:00] Reply: Regarding applications we will be discussing applications (and maybe asking for improvements) until April 7th or 8th - remember no news may well be good news

[15:00] Reply: Some useful links/tips - use the template : http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/SummerOfCode2006Template - base page: http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/SummerOfCode

[15:00] Reply: Tips for a good application - q's to ask yourself: http://yeoldeclue.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.cgi?rm=viewpost&nodeid=1206709783

[15:22] *** MS- has parted #kamaelia

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[16:34] < Lawouach> back

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[19:43] < MS-> evening

[19:43] < MS-> or some alternative spelling of that

[19:43] < MS-> :)

[19:45] < jle> 'ello. Been busy?

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[20:15] < MS-> jle: tep

[20:15] < MS-> yep

[20:15] < MS-> can't type today it seems

[20:19] < Davbo> Evenin' all

[20:20] < j_baker> hello

[20:20] < MS-> heya

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[21:07] < MS-> heya

[21:14] < MS-> I'm adding a comment to about half the applications to allow one last re-edit for those who want to do that

[21:20] < MS-> OK, sent

[21:20] < MS-> A fair few people on the channel have done most (if not all in some cases) the things requested in the email

[21:21] < MS-> but it's only fair to send the same thing to everyone

[21:22] *** barrycarlyon_ goes and checks his emails

[21:26] < MS-> I recognise not everyone will have the time, energy, patience to do the things requested. The weaker the app, the greater the need to do things asked

[21:26] < MS-> I think j_baker has actually done all of them for example though.

[21:27] < MS-> Which is why it seems reasonable to ask

[21:31] < MS-> FWIW, barrycarlyon_ I think your application would benefit greatly from doing the things asked for.

[21:32] < barrycarlyon_> Ok I shall have a look

[21:32] *** barrycarlyon_ is now known as barrycarlyon

[21:33] *** MS- thinks

[21:33] *** barrycarlyon is glad he is in the good half :-)

[21:34] < MS-> I think orphans has done all of them as well, simon has done some of them as well and Davbo has too (some of them) for example

[21:34] < MS-> barrycarlyon: me too :)

[21:34] < barrycarlyon> Im glad your glad

[21:35] < MS-> there's nothing worse than having to tell someone they're in the other half...

[21:35] < barrycarlyon> Did you know that we all get a free edit anyway....

[21:35] < MS-> Yep

[21:35] < barrycarlyon> commenting to be on the safe side then :-)

[21:35] < MS-> It's my sutble way of suggesting people take a little look and decide

[21:36] < MS-> There a few apps which would be nice to be a little clearer on

[21:36] < MS-> Essentially we've done preliminary ranking and some people are naturally higher up the list than others, and the idea behind this is to see if people higher up merit it and if people lower down merit moving up

[21:37] < MS-> Also, by asking people to do the 3 things asked for really, it allows them to get an idea "do I even like this way of doing things"

[21:37] < MS-> which is as important IMO as anything else

[21:37] < barrycarlyon> Indeedy :-)

[21:38] < barrycarlyon> Would you like to see a copy of my CV, i just updated it?

[21:38] < MS-> Code is more useful :)

[21:38] < barrycarlyon> Ok :-)

[21:38] < MS-> CVs are interesting, but code talks :)

[21:38] < MS-> Quite literally in the case of the example I posted :-D

[21:39] < barrycarlyon> I'm actually going to plug in my printer and print this email, it will be the first time the printer will have been used, since i got it in December.....

[21:39] < MS-> heh

[21:39] < barrycarlyon> lol, Brummie Accent?

[21:40] < MS-> Yep, it is rather amusing

[21:40] < MS-> Makes a change from californian

[21:48] < j_baker> MS- do you think my "sandboxed" file system that I listed is reasonable?

[21:49] < j_baker> And if so, what libraries, etc, should I look at?

[21:49] < Davbo> Just read your email MS-, thanks for giving me the opportunity to change it. Although I'd like to get on with my Kamaelia things, it's fairly low priority

[21:50] < Davbo> so many projects with deadlines coming up at uni

[21:50] < MS-> Davbo: You mentioned that you'd written some code - that's about the only thing I'd worry about putting a pointer to really

[21:51] < MS-> I don't think there's much you could add to your app otherwise.

[21:51] < Davbo> Will do!

[21:51] < MS-> If you've done that, excuse the comment :-)

[21:51] *** barrycarlyon discovered you need to close the printer for it to go, hmm cartidges...

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[21:52] < MS-> j_baker: reading

[21:54] < MS-> I'm unclear what you mean by "This means that whenever a script requests a file on the file system"

[21:54] < MS-> What do you mean by "a script" there

[21:55] < j_baker> Well say somebody goes to www.domain.com/peer_id/asdf.py

[21:55] < MS-> You want asdf.py executed?

[21:55] < j_baker> Well, yes.

[21:56] < MS-> That's really awkward to do safely, but there are some techniques you can take

[21:56] < j_baker> But when asdf.py tries to write to the file system, it gets directed to a "file" in a sqlite database.

[21:56] < MS-> Which you could take (look on activestates python cookbook for some for example)

[21:57] < MS-> all of which should be compatible with your suggestion.

[21:57] < MS-> Definitely sits in "given sufficient time" land though

[21:57] < MS-> But if implemented could be really useful

[21:58] < MS-> I can think of some ways that could be relatively easy to do, but relatively constrained, and other less constrained ways which may be cans of worms

[21:58] < j_baker> Yup. I was thinking that it would help minimize the impact of any code injection vulnerabilities (if they are prevalent in python)

[22:00] < MS-> Depends on how you do things really. If you do "exec" or "eval" then most sandboxes can be escaped from

[22:01] < MS-> But not all

[22:03] < j_baker> Alright. That appears to be something I'll have to spend more time researching further down the line.

[22:04] < j_baker> But hopefully that at least pushes me away from triviality.

[22:06] < MS-> :)

[22:13] < j_baker> Anyway, I have homework to take care of. Talk to you guys later.

[22:13] < MS-> cya

[22:13] < j_baker> MS- I did also upload another piece of sample code that uses wsgi.

[22:13] < j_baker> later guys

[22:13] < MS-> cool - I'll look

[22:13] *** j_baker has parted #kamaelia

[22:16] < orphans> hey all

[22:18] < MS-> heya

[22:18] < orphans> how goes it MS-

[22:19] < MS-> Pretty good

[22:19] < orphans> cool cool

[22:19] < MS-> Thanks for filling in what that component did BTW :)

[22:19] < MS-> In terms of what it did from an OSC perspective

[22:20] < orphans> heh, np. I realise it was a little silly but a nice enough test :)

[22:21] < MS-> Indeed, but it shows integration & understanding :)

[22:22] < orphans> Cool :) I got the email you sent round - is there anything specific which you could do with seeing for my app in terms of code?

[22:22] < MS-> I think you've probably hit all the points for me already actually

[22:23] < MS-> You've not put up a miniaxon, but you've put up actual code instead.

[22:23] < MS-> Which kinda trumps a miniaxon

[22:24] < orphans> yeah, I've got a basic miniaxon on my pc, but I thought code was probably a bit more relevant

[22:24] < MS-> indeed

[22:24] < MS-> It *is* interesting to see different miniaxons though, since people don't always give quite the same answer. But it's more "mini axon is minimal, something real is preferable"

[22:26] < orphans> ok, I'll post mine up it you think it'd be useful. tbh it's pretty close to the results given on the site - the instructions are very followable :)

[22:26] < MS-> cool

[22:28] < orphans> I'll probably stick it up tomorrow some time if that's OK, want to make sure I haven't done anything too stupid in there...

[22:29] < MS-> There's no rush

[22:29] *** orphans puts = instead of == far too often

[22:29] < orphans> I'm quite liking having this to do as a break from revision really :)

[22:30] < orphans> keeps me half sane

[22:30] < MS-> Personally I think it's actually the benefit of 10% or 20% time projects at workplaces - it gives you something to do which gives your brain a rest

[22:31] < MS-> from the task in hand, but doesn't mean it slows to a complete stop and doesn't mean it gets over worked.

[22:31] < orphans> yeah, I think it's a really nice idea

[22:31] < orphans> is that how you're working on kamaelia at the moment?

[22:31] < MS-> Essentially

[22:31] < MS-> I probably spend much more time on kamaelia outside work than inside at present

[22:31] < MS-> But that's not too surprising - it was my idea :)

[22:32] < orphans> :)

[22:32] < MS-> And kinda embodies how I think about problems :)

[22:34] < orphans> *sigh* I probably ought to go to sleep - need to get up early tomorrow

[22:36] < orphans> I'll sort out my miniaxon and post it up in a comment over the next day or so, if there's anything else which would be useful then let me know and I'll give it a go

[22:36] < MS-> Cool. As I say there's no rush, and I was thinking of you & J_baker when I said "some students have already done this" really

[22:37] < MS-> (Not exclusively, of course)

[22:37] < orphans> ok great

[22:37] < orphans> night MS-

[22:37] < MS-> cya

[22:37] *** orphans has parted #kamaelia

[22:57] *** MS- goes off for sleep

[22:57] < MS-> cya

[22:57] *** MS- has parted #kamaelia