[00:00] < vmlemon__> Took hours to get it to free up full swap, last time

[00:01] < MS-> kamaeliabot: reload Kamaelia.Apps.IRCLogger.Support

[00:01] 'Kamaelia.Apps.IRCLogger.Support' reloaded

[00:01] < MS-> anyone know how to help vmlemon__ ?

[00:01] Reply: Hm?

[00:02] < MS-> anyone know how to make kamaeliabot more intelligent?

[00:02] Reply: Hm?

[00:02] < MS-> clearly not :)

[00:02] < MS-> woo

[00:02] < MS-> two useful hooks

[00:02] < vmlemon__> The HDD is going nuts with all the paging...

[00:03] < MS-> Yeah, that can be a real pain.

[00:04] < vmlemon__> Probably kill the thing extra-fast, with it being a laptop drive

[00:09] < vmlemon__> Good job it isn't a new-fangled SSD thing, or half the chips would probably have burnt out by now

[00:14] < vmlemon__> Phew, got it to plummet to 12% used swap, before it would have crashed

[00:17] < MS-> hm

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[08:20] < simon> hello

[08:20] < imsameer_in> hey

[08:20] *** Lawouach has joined #kamaelia

[08:23] < imsameer_in> so simon are you a developer on kamaelia

[08:23] < imsameer_in> ?

[08:24] < simon> no, just interested in working for kamaelia in gsoc

[08:25] < imsameer_in> cool

[08:26] < simon> imsameer_in: and you?

[08:27] < imsameer_in> i'm trying for GSoC too,how many do u think they will accept this time...

[08:28] < simon> they got 4 slots last year

[08:34] < simon> imsameer_in: what do you want to write for kamaelia?

[08:36] < imsameer_in> i am still hunting

[08:37] < imsameer_in> i have a little bent towards the Schroedinger idea

[08:37] < imsameer_in> and one of my own

[08:37] < imsameer_in> i'll keep my fingers crossed

[08:38] < imsameer_in> what do u have on ur mind?

[08:41] < simon> a simple "mmorpg", just ability to log on to a world and talk to people and some other basic things like walking in that world

[08:43] < imsameer_in> that sort of thing would be cool

[08:47] < imsameer_in> u have already discussed ur idea here?

[08:47] < simon> nope, have you?

[08:48] < imsameer_in> i have had a brief talk

[08:49] < imsameer_in> lasr night

[08:49] < imsameer_in> they suggested i put up a brief writep on the net for them to read

[08:51] < imsameer_in> i think same goes for u

[08:51] < simon> ok, thx

[08:51] < simon> i will

[09:18] *** Lawouach is looking forward at what you guys will come up with :)

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[11:04] < simon> i made a brief presentation of me and my idea for GSoC at mellby.no-ip.org/kamaelia.text please comment

[11:14] *** MS- takes a look

[11:18] *** simon cross his fingers

[11:27] < MS-> OK,let me repeat your idea back to you a different way.

[11:27] < MS-> What you intend to do is to create a simple gaming system. That game has a 2D representation - which appears to be based on a tiled world (going on your examples). ...

[11:28] < MS-> The game will consist of client and server parts

[11:28] < MS-> The clients will connect to a server which will present to the client part of the shared world the players are in.

[11:28] < MS-> The server will ensure that the state between the multiple clients is consistent

[11:29] < MS-> Additionally, the server will maintain some general information on players

[11:29] < MS-> such as stats, scores, etc

[11:29] < MS-> and some of this information will be stored in an SQL database

[11:30] < MS-> Players will also be able to communicate with each other

[11:30] < MS-> Sounds pretty good :)

[11:30] < MS-> It also sounds doable during GSOC

[11:30] < MS-> at least for a usable working core

[11:31] < MS-> Especially if you help get your project started by using an existing tiling engine

[11:31] < Lawouach> I wonder, wouldn't it make it more fun to avoid a central server and go for a P2P kind of network between players

[11:31] < Lawouach> ?

[11:32] < vmlemon__> Multicasting?

[11:32] < MS-> Lawouach: That's what I would think would be a nice idea too - but by doing client server in kamaelia you get P2P almost for free really

[11:32] < MS-> vmlemon__: If people want to play by themselves

[11:32] < MS-> ;)

[11:32] < MS-> It's a nice idea

[11:33] < Lawouach> :)

[11:33] *** vmlemon__ can see it working well

[11:33] < MS-> simon: it's a nice idea - it needs more flesh and bones on it, but its a good one if you'd like suggestions as to what the flesh and bones could be, let me know

[11:34] < MS-> vmlemon__: I can see a game like this working well. To be fair, on a LAN, multicast would probably be OK as well

[11:35] < simon> thanks everyone for your input, and MS- suggestions is welcome

[11:35] < MS-> My suggestion is also to look into how Kamaelia works as well since you'll need to know how to get it to fit in.

[11:36] < MS-> ie if you haven't done, I'd suggest doing the MiniAxon tutorial - http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/MiniAxon/

[11:36] < simon> MS-: I have already done MiniAxon

[11:37] < MS-> OK. Cool.

[11:38] < simon> MS-: have kamaelia any tutorial that goes into more detail?

[11:38] < MS-> Mainly presentations on slideshare actually (as well as the cookbook)

[11:38] < MS-> Probably a good one is...

[11:38] < MS-> (grabbing URL)

[11:39] < MS-> http://www.slideshare.net/kamaelian/building-systems-with-kamaelia

[11:39] < MS-> Has a number of examples which grow in complexity

[11:39] < simon> ok I will take a look on that after i have eaten

[11:39] < MS-> :)

[11:40] < MS-> Starts off with a few simple examples (a simple streaming server - which *is* simple :) )

[11:40] < MS-> then a simple pygame based presentation tool - with various buttons

[11:41] < MS-> but works its way up to "how to build a P2P swarming streaming system"

[11:42] < MS-> the cookbook is well worth reading through though since it is more detailed

[11:42] < MS-> a tutorial on how to build a single component is here: http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/blog/blog.cgi?rm=viewpost&nodeid=1113495151

[11:42] < MS-> It's a little on the old side, but still valid & relevant

[11:44] < MS-> Also shows how to go from "I have a really short program that does more or less what I want my component to do" through to "this is how you make it an interesting component"

[11:44] < MS-> In gentle steps

[11:51] < Lawouach> simon, don't hesitate to ask questions here whenever you feel lost

[11:52] < MS-> indeed

[11:53] < MS-> questions are good

[11:53] < MS-> you might not get an immediate answer, but that's what the logger - kamaeliabot - is for

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[13:52] < Davbo> Afternoon all.

[14:11] *** Davbo is shamed writing MSN as preferred IM network on student sign-up page

[14:11] < Davbo> it's not preferred! it's just what everyone uses :(

[14:14] *** simon__ agree

[14:29] < MS-> The reason MSN is the network that gets heavily used by students is probably due to the customisable emoticons. I came to that conclusion last year.

[14:29] < MS-> (afternoon :) )

[14:34] < orphans> Hey all, erm, anyone know who I should talk to about this years SOC?

[14:34] Reply: Hm?

[14:36] < MS-> As the topic says, ask away :)

[14:36] < orphans> kinda had an idea for a proposal, but I'm not really sure whether it'd be of interest to you

[14:36] < MS-> Well, it's easier to tell that if you tell us what it is :-)

[14:37] < MS-> ;)

[14:37] < orphans> I was thinking of doing something related to networked audio - maybe something like a multi-user OSC or midi editor

[14:38] < MS-> OSC?

[14:39] < MS-> (depending on your idea, it could be interesting btw :) )

[14:39] < orphans> Open Sound Control - it's kind of a next generation midi thing: http://opensoundcontrol.org/

[14:40] < orphans> I guess I thought it'd make quite a nice example for Kamaelia, allowing lots of users to sequence and edit midi/osc

[14:41] < MS-> ok

[14:41] < MS-> yes, that could be interesting

[14:41] < orphans> part of the fun would be that each user could then control different sounds with it, so you'd have the same structure and melody, but really different sounds

[14:41] < MS-> I like the idea of it being multiuser as well (should be fairly easy to do that given the way kamaelia hangs together)

[14:42] < orphans> yeah, that's what I though. There's loads of tools to do it as a single user, but it'd be interesting to see how it works collaborating

[14:43] < MS-> indeed.

[14:43] < orphans> If you have far too much time on your hands I sort of got the idea from here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziIdjrR_MRs

[14:44] *** MS- looks

[14:44] < orphans> the last part of the video with two people doing it is kinda similar to what I was thinking

[14:44] < orphans> but with more people :)

[14:45] < MS-> That's pretty funky

[14:46] < orphans> yeah, I want one!

[14:47] < MS-> I quite like that. I don't know if you've seen, from the project page, but I'm interested in webcam integration as well.

[14:47] < MS-> given amsn does this quite well, this could be relatively easy, but would involve digging

[14:48] < MS-> but once you have a source of images making that *could* be relatively simple

[14:48] < MS-> But I can see how you could want to do something similar with multiple people and kamaelia and a simple display

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[14:50] < MS-> The question in my mind is what core components this would generate for kamaelia. I guess it would be integration with OSC or midi, neither of which exist at present, and would be potentially a fun project

[14:50] < orphans> ahh, so perhaps using the webcam to make a physical interface for it too. I was thinking more purely digital, but I guess that could kill three birds with one stone. In a kind of stretched metaphor...

[14:51] < orphans> yeah, that was in a way what I wasn't sure about. I think something like OSC could potentially be pretty useful

[14:51] < MS-> I think doing that *and* webcam integration could be attempting too much for GSOC, but having that as an added extra sounds a realistic possibility. (*IF* webcam support is trivial, or if someone else does that as a project )

[14:52] < orphans> yeah

[14:53] < orphans> Looking at the list OSC would be one way to link to processing (which has pretty good support for it) - I could maybe focus more in that direction if it's more of interest to you

[14:54] < orphans> Perhaps even use processing for a UI

[14:54] < MS-> processing is less interesting since that's java based really.

[14:54] < MS-> The kamaelia/jython/processing project suggestion is more around the idea of pushing kamaelia into a web browser environment

[14:55] < MS-> where of course python doesn't really run at the moment

[14:55] < orphans> ahh k, yeah

[14:56] < MS-> I figured you meant this would build on the whiteboard codebase (maybe) since that already handles a collaborative UI

[14:56] < MS-> Where clients can all connect to each other in a P2P fashion

[14:56] < MS-> Which would mean you could focus on the other aspects

[14:57] < MS-> hm

[14:57] < orphans> yeah, perhaps. To be honest I hadn't really thought as far as a UI - more the idea of the OSC/Midi communication with some form of UI

[14:57] < MS-> I wonder if Matt's nascent gesture recognition code could be useful for this sort of thing

[14:57] < MS-> It's designed as a simple means of character recognition

[14:58] < orphans> like you do with a palmtop (or at least did - haven't used one in ages)

[14:58] < MS-> which means you could define around 20 odd gestures for example. (I'm not saying 26 because some letters are multi-stroke, ad less accurate)

[14:58] < MS-> exactly

[14:59] < MS-> He didn't have a good use for it, so he didn't package it up, but it's still in SVN in /Sketches/MH/GestureRecognition IIRC

[14:59] *** orphans has a look

[14:59] < MS-> http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/trunk/Sketches/MH/GestureRecognition/

[15:00] < orphans> ta

[15:00] < MS-> Might give you some more ideas :)

[15:01] < MS-> Nice idea

[15:05] < orphans> k, I'll have a bit more of a look through all that and try and come back with something a bit more coherent/useful

[15:06] < vmlemon__> Hi

[15:08] < MS-> orphans: sounds good

[15:08] < MS-> vmlemon__: hi

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[16:09] < Davbo> http://www.davbo.org/blog/ - opinions?

[16:10] *** Davbo prepares himself ;)

[16:47] < MS-> Davbo: - looks like a blog :)

[16:48] < Davbo> uhh...YAY! That's -exactly- what I was going for

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[17:00] < Davbo> thought it might come in handy if i end up on gsoc

[17:34] < MS-> :)

[17:34] *** MS- wonders if he was supposed to say anything else really

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[17:44] < orphans> MS-: Is there any limitation/standard on what you pass through a component's inbox or outbox?

[17:44] < orphans> or can it be any message, and it's the next component's job to make sense of it

[18:22] < Lawouach_> It is indeed

[18:22] < Lawouach_> boxes are ignorant of the object you drop

[18:22] < Lawouach_> in the case of components running in different proceess I think objects must be pickable

[18:24] < MS-> orphans: Assume you can send anything. In some circumstances there are limits, but components generally shouldn't worry about it

[18:25] < MS-> If an object will pass process boundaries, the Lawouach_ is right - the object has to be picklable, but that's relatively easy to deal with by putting a component in the middle, so the rule of thumb is "send any python object and worry about problem cases where they arise" :-)

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[18:57] < simon__> how is EventHandler used? tried like this http://pastebin.com/m27e74a5e but nothing gets printed

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[19:08] < Davbo> MS-, I was just trying to get someone to visit to see if the stats page would update :P ie, no you weren't supposed to say anything else lol

[19:09] < Davbo> Was testing to see it was tracking unique visits which was how i set it up

[19:10] < simon__> Davbo: the only real way to test that correctly is getting slashdoted :P

[19:11] < vmlemon__> Or Dugg

[19:12] < Davbo> simon__, i wanted a unique visits tracker not an Alexa rank :p

[19:13] < Davbo> got any snow vmlemon__ ?

[19:13] < simon__> Davbo: whats the diffrent :P

[19:14] < vmlemon__> No sno', but we did get hail

[19:15] < Davbo> heh, good point simon__ :)

[19:15] < Davbo> the snow just started to settle on the ground here then it stopped, ah well.

[20:14] < MS-> Davbo: "no you weren't supposed to say anything else lol" cool _)

[20:14] < MS-> :-)

[20:19] < Davbo> me and simon concluded all i was trying to was boost my Alexa rank ;)

[20:24] < MS-> :)

[20:26] < simon__> how is EventHandler used? tried: http://pastebin.com/m17fc5908 but the events dont happen

[20:46] < MS-> An example of use:

[20:46] < MS-> http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Examples/SimpleGraphicalApps/BouncingCatGame/Simplegame.py?view=markup

[20:47] < MS-> It's a fairly old component and doesn't really fit the kamaelia model as well as it should. Ideally it'd be rewritten to be intended as a mixin to a component class

[20:47] < MS-> But that's an example of use

[20:48] < MS-> It's instantiated and called from this :

[20:48] < MS-> http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Examples/SimpleGraphicalApps/BouncingCatGame/Sprites/SpriteScheduler.py?revision=2485&view=markup

[20:48] < MS-> It's not the best example though

[20:49] < MS-> http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Kamaelia/UI/Pygame/KeyEvent.py?revision=3039&view=markup

[20:49] < MS-> gives a probably better approach

[20:50] < MS-> But there'd be nothing particularly against using the event handler as a mixin

[20:52] < simon__> ok, thx will take a closer look at keyevent

[20:52] < Davbo> back later all, cya.

[20:56] < orphans> off to try and watch stuff on Veoh - none of this BBC nonsense :D Ta for the help etc MS-

[20:58] < MS-> heh

[20:59] < MS-> Veoh?

[20:59] *** MS- googles

[21:00] < MS-> oh interesting

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