[00:20] *** kamaeliabot has joined #kamaelia

[00:21] < MS-> test

[00:21] < MS-> http://yeoldeclue.com/logs/kamaelia2008-03-20_log.html

[00:21] < MS-> We've been accepted for GSOC 2008 | ideas/info page: http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/SummerOfCode2008 | Don't ask to ask, just ask | Multicore Kamaelia : http://yeoldeclue.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.cgi?rm=viewpost&nodeid=1205626569 | logs: http://yeoldeclue.com/logs/

[00:22] *** MS- changed the topic to We've been accepted for GSOC 2008 | ideas/info page: http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/SummerOfCode2008 | Don't ask to ask, just ask | Multicore Kamaelia : http://yeoldeclue.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.cgi?rm=viewpost&nodeid=1205626569 | logs: http://yeoldeclue.com/logs/

[00:23] < MS-> OK, That's the logger packaged up and tested on linux and mac os

[00:23] < MS-> https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/branches/private_MPS_Scratch/Apps/Kamaelia-Logger has the packaging

[00:24] < MS-> Specifically https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/branches/private_MPS_Scratch/Apps/Kamaelia-Logger/DistBuild/Logger.build.sh is the package build script

[00:24] < MS-> (based on the packaging approach for kamaelia grey)

[00:25] < MS-> http://yeoldeclue.com/t/Kamaelia-Logger-1.0.0.tar.gz is the tar ball

[00:26] < MS-> install is the usual

[00:26] < MS-> tar zxvf Kamaelia-Logger-1.0.0.tar.gz

[00:26] < MS-> cd Kamaelia-Logger-1.0.0

[00:26] < MS-> sudo python setup.py install

[00:26] < MS-> dance

[00:26] < MS-> Config file in /etc

[00:27] < MS-> init script in /etc/init.d under linux and in /System/Library/StartupItems/KamaeliaLogger on Mac OS X

[00:27] < MS-> (tested on both, running on the latter)

[00:28] < MS-> and on that note, I'm off :)

[00:28] *** MS- is now known as ms-away

[00:30] < ms-away> Oh, before I go

[00:30] < ms-away> all lines preceded with [off]

[00:30] < ms-away> aren't logged

[00:30] < ms-away> (kinda handy)

[01:35] < Davbo> Looks good ms-away

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[10:38] *** MS- has joined #kamaelia

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[12:36] < MS-> kamaeliabot: help

[12:36] Reply: Name: kamaeliabot Channel: #kamaelia

[12:36] Reply: I do a simple job -- recording all channel traffic.

[12:36] Reply: Lines prefixed by [off] won't get recorded

[12:36] Reply: I respond to the following: 'logfile', 'infofile', 'help', 'date', 'time', 'dance', 'poke', 'slap', 'ecky', 'boo', and 'reload {modulename}'.

[12:36] < MS-> kamaeliabot: dance

[12:36] Reply: does the macarena

[12:37] *** vmlemon__ has joined #kamaelia

[12:38] < mhrd> kamaeliabot: help reload

[12:38] Reply: Name: kamaeliabot Channel: #kamaelia

[12:38] Reply: I do a simple job -- recording all channel traffic.

[12:38] Reply: Lines prefixed by [off] won't get recorded

[12:38] Reply: I respond to the following: 'logfile', 'infofile', 'help', 'date', 'time', 'dance', 'poke', 'slap', 'ecky', 'boo', and 'reload {modulename}'.

[12:38] < mhrd> kamaeliabot: reload

[12:39] < MS-> It's just Jinna's code from last summer, but repackaged up for easier install/maintainence

[12:39] < vmlemon__> Hi

[12:40] < MS-> vmlemon__: Hi

[12:40] < MS-> mhrd: https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/branches/private_MPS_Scratch/Apps/Kamaelia-Logger

[12:41] < MS-> It expects to reload changes to this https://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/kamaelia/branches/private_MPS_Scratch/Kamaelia/Kamaelia/Apps/IRCLogger/Support.py (i think :) )

[12:49] < vmlemon__> Hmm, do they still sell the old (green, I think) BT Phonecards?

[12:50] < MS-> No idea

[12:50] < MS-> I don't think so

[12:58] *** vmlemon__ wonders why phoneboxes still have slots for them

[13:10] < MS-> You can put creditcards in

[13:10] < MS-> So if they're magstripe readers..

[13:11] < MS-> maybe it's just a matter of "we didn't say this would go away and its too expensive to change"

[13:11] < MS-> mayb

[13:11] < MS-> e

[13:18] < vmlemon__> I know that some boxes have both a credit card reader, and a legacy green card reader as two slots

[13:19] < vmlemon__> Probably to avoid confusion with boxes that don't accept credit cards

[13:22] < vmlemon__> They also did an incompatible "new-style" card

[13:56] < vmlemon__> Shame some people tar all of the BBC with the same brush

[13:56] < MS-> Of course they d

[13:56] < MS-> o

[13:56] < MS-> It's human nature, sadly

[14:26] *** Davbo has joined #kamaelia

[15:18] < Davbo> I've got a question about MiniAxon

[15:18] < Davbo> Is there any difference between

[15:18] < Davbo> result = self.boxes[inboxname][0]

[15:18] < Davbo> del self.boxes[inboxname][0]

[15:18] < Davbo> return result

[15:18] < Davbo> and

[15:19] < Davbo> return self.boxes[boxname].pop()

[15:20] < MS-> >>> X=[1,2,3,4]

[15:20] < MS-> >>> X.pop()

[15:20] < MS-> 4

[15:20] < MS-> >>> X

[15:20] < MS-> [1, 2, 3]

[15:20] < MS-> >>> X=[1,2,3,4]

[15:20] < MS-> >>> X[0]

[15:20] < MS-> 1

[15:20] < MS-> >>> del X[0]

[15:20] < MS-> >>> X

[15:20] < MS-> [2, 3, 4]

[15:20] < MS-> >>> X=[1,2,3,4]

[15:20] < MS-> >>> X.pop(0)

[15:20] < MS-> 1

[15:20] < MS-> >>> X

[15:20] < MS-> [2, 3, 4]

[15:20] < MS-> is probably what you're thinking

[15:21] < Davbo> ah

[15:21] < Davbo> so i need to change it to pop(0) so it takes one from the front of the list

[15:21] < MS-> Well, needs to be the opposite end from where you append :)

[15:21] < Davbo> otherwise it's working like a stack and not a list right?

[15:21] < MS-> stack rather than queue

[15:22] < Davbo> yeah, thanks MS-

[15:23] < Davbo> kinda forgot you could just run "python" and easily test it there.

[15:24] < Davbo> getting used to an interpreted language again

[15:29] < MS-> :)

[15:47] < Davbo> finished the MiniAxon

[15:49] < Davbo> dictionaries seem so useful

[15:50] < Davbo> i may have to hassle my lecturers to let me implement my project in Python :p

[16:02] < MS-> COol

[16:03] < MS-> Dictionaries are highly optimised in python btw

[16:03] < MS-> since they use the same implementation as the byte code interpreter uses for looking up names

[16:03] < MS-> and values

[16:07] *** LightningMonkey has joined #kamaelia

[16:07] < LightningMonkey> hello

[16:09] < MS-> Hi

[16:10] < LightningMonkey> I am interested in some of the google summer of code projects

[16:10] < MS-> ok

[16:10] < MS-> which one(s) ?

[16:10] < LightningMonkey> specifically working on the topology viewer to make it 3D

[16:11] < MS-> Cool.

[16:11] < LightningMonkey> it sounds like it would be a fun project

[16:11] < MS-> Indeed.

[16:11] < MS-> The existing topology visualiser is based on a simple physics model

[16:11] < LightningMonkey> I have experience with OpenGL

[16:11] < LightningMonkey> mhm

[16:11] < LightningMonkey> I am also a fan of physics

[16:11] < MS-> which whilst 2D based, works on 2D vectors

[16:11] < LightningMonkey> mhm

[16:12] < MS-> extending it should be a matter of changing that to 3D vectors, and an appropriate open GL visualisation component

[16:12] < LightningMonkey> so is it as simple as particles having vector directions, then add forces to slow/speed them up

[16:12] < MS-> No,particles are simply points

[16:13] < MS-> there's linkages which provide tensions

[16:13] < MS-> (attract/repulse)

[16:13] < LightningMonkey> ah

[16:13] < MS-> It's a very simple model :)

[16:14] < MS-> http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Kamaelia/Visualisation/PhysicsGraph/ has the code for the 2D components

[16:14] < MS-> http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Kamaelia/Visualisation/PhysicsGraph/TopologyViewer.py?revision=2735&view=markup

[16:14] < MS-> is the main entry point

[16:15] < MS-> http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Kamaelia/Support/Particles/ contains the particles themselves

[16:15] < LightningMonkey> By the way, I am current at work so if I don't respond quickly it is because I have to help a suer

[16:16] < LightningMonkey> 'user

[16:16] < LightningMonkey> I work in a computer lab

[16:16] < MS-> along with the laws that get applied at each iteration (esentially its a simulation)

[16:17] < MS-> http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Kamaelia/Support/Particles/ParticleSystem.py?revision=2356&view=markup

[16:17] < MS-> is the core of the particle system code

[16:17] < MS-> The key part of that piece of code is this:

[16:17] < MS-> 73 ParticleSystem will work for particles in space with any number of dimensions -

[16:17] < MS-> 74 so long as all particles use the same!

[16:18] < LightningMonkey> very nice

[16:18] < MS-> Open GL components are here:

[16:18] < MS-> http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Kamaelia/UI/OpenGL/

[16:18] < MS-> And you'd essentially be rendering using the same approach there

[16:19] < MS-> Or expected to

[16:19] < LightningMonkey> right

[16:19] < LightningMonkey> so the project would be just to make it into 3D, or would there be tinkering with the physics model as well?

[16:19] < MS-> http://kamaelia.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kamaelia/trunk/Code/Python/Kamaelia/Kamaelia/UI/OpenGL/Button.py?revision=2735&view=markup

[16:19] < MS-> Gives an example of a simple 3D "button" that can sit in space

[16:20] < MS-> The project's goal would be to make the topology visualiser work in 3D

[16:20] < MS-> If that involves changes to the physics model, that's fine

[16:20] < MS-> If it doesn't need it, that's fine too

[16:20] < LightningMonkey> alright

[16:20] < MS-> The key use that we'd be interested in (due to someone asking for it :) )

[16:21] < MS-> is the ability to dump a social network into the visualiser and explore it

[16:21] < MS-> and do so in a 3D environment

[16:22] < MS-> (not necessarily a huge one, but that's what the aim would be)

[16:22] < LightningMonkey> That is a very cool idea I will admit

[16:23] < LightningMonkey> So if it was a social network like say, facebook, would each node be a person and connection be who they are friends with?

[16:23] < LightningMonkey> at least something of that nature?

[16:23] < MS-> The idea is actually based around organising & exploring information around contacts between organisations

[16:24] < MS-> "who knows X who also knows Y in organisation A, B, C"

[16:24] < MS-> But you can also view it in terms of facebook

[16:24] < MS-> though with a much lower number of friends per node :)

[16:24] < LightningMonkey> very true

[16:24] < MS-> and more colleagues than friends :)

[16:24] < LightningMonkey> lol

[16:25] < MS-> not that the two are necessarily disjoint :)

[16:25] < LightningMonkey> yes i was about to say that one would hope some of the colleagues were friends

[16:25] < LightningMonkey> lol

[16:26] < MS-> So there may be some interesting possible extensions to the physics model to say "these things should be in the same locale, even though there isn't a link between them"

[16:26] < MS-> and "these others are from a different group"

[16:26] < MS-> the 2D topology visualiser has turned out to be very useful in the past and its customisability has turned out useful

[16:27] < LightningMonkey> so like nodes that represent people in the same group should remain close to each other even if they dont have a link?

[16:27] < MS-> yes

[16:27] < MS-> For example I needed to remodel a large datamodel and didn't particularly want to draw it, even though visualising it was the best way - so I created an ER modelling tool - which is documented roughly here:

[16:27] < MS-> http://yeoldeclue.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.cgi?rm=viewpost&nodeid=1195955570

[16:28] < MS-> The separation of rendering from physics makes it really nice to work with

[16:28] < MS-> (I didn't write the original engine :) )

[16:28] < LightningMonkey> nice

[16:29] < LightningMonkey> it would seem you could just use the existing attraction/repelent model to keep people together, just give them lower attraction constants

[16:29] < LightningMonkey> or something of that nature

[16:29] < MS-> Quite possibly. You could also think of it like a weak force & a strong force

[16:29] < LightningMonkey> yup

[16:30] < MS-> Weak attract/repulse for the overall type and strong at the nodel level

[16:30] < LightningMonkey> exactly

[16:31] < MS-> The nice thing about that is that you'd be able to see if there are individuals in groups that are highly connected beyond groups

[16:31] < LightningMonkey> this music model is pretty cool by the way

[16:31] < MS-> you'd expect "yes" to that, and it'd be nice

[16:31] < MS-> music model?

[16:31] < MS-> Oh that

[16:31] < LightningMonkey> the link you jsut sent

[16:31] < MS-> That's from looking at my old universities website and looking for current examples

[16:32] < MS-> and then using that to re-render :)

[16:32] < LightningMonkey> mhm

[16:33] < LightningMonkey> So as I said before, I have worked with opengl before, but not through python. I have always done it though C

[16:33] < MS-> The PyOpenGL interface is pretty much the same

[16:34] < LightningMonkey> ya I noticed

[16:34] < MS-> It calls out to the same libraries

[16:34] < MS-> So as long as you use display lists, it's not a huge deal

[16:34] < LightningMonkey> mhm

[16:34] < MS-> But then that's not exactly unusual

[16:35] < MS-> The Open GL support was added BTW by a GSOC'er 2 years ago

[16:35] < LightningMonkey> Well I may hopefully continue in that grand tradition

[16:36] < LightningMonkey> hehe

[16:36] < MS-> His blog from GSOC was here: http://thfsoc.blogspot.com/

[16:38] < MS-> OK, I'm going AFK for a couple of hours. kamaeliabot is logging the channel - logs are http://yeoldeclue.com/logs/ - if you have questions, please feel free to ask away and I'll see them when I come back

[16:38] < MS-> cya

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[19:37] < Davbo> MS-, now i've got my MiniAxon is there anything you'd recommend i read up on before applying?

[19:38] < MS-> I'd suggest, given you've got time,

[19:38] < MS-> playing with Matt's code in /Sketches/MH

[19:39] < MS-> Largely because Matt's done all sorts of things which could be interesting from a GSOC perspective

[19:39] < Davbo> Got 3 weeks off Uni

[19:39] < MS-> but he didn't move over to /Code for whatever reason

[19:39] < MS-> There's interesting stuff in there like gesture recognition, open gl based "page turning" and so on

[19:40] < Davbo> It's not necessarily about gsoc i've just got myself interested now - especially with Python

[19:40] < MS-> in my area /Sketches/MPS theres some interesting stuff there as well, but I'm trying to package up

[19:40] < MS-> Ah , cool

[19:41] < MS-> I think one book (which is available online) that I'd read if I was in your position would be "how to think like a computer scientist using python", simply because its a well written book (ie very skimmable)

[19:41] < Davbo> Just read the cookbook pages for Pipelines Graphlines and Carousels

[19:42] < MS-> I think also I'd read through the /Cookbook pages as well and have a ponder

[19:42] < Davbo> lol

[19:42] < Davbo> :)

[19:42] < MS-> The Open GL examples are very interesting/fun as well

[19:43] < Davbo> We've not started 3d graphics in my course yet so i'm curious with Open GL

[19:43] < MS-> I mean, I know I've got some clear ideas of what I would like to see, (multi-window image editor/manipulation/video annotation/simple editor), but that's the interesting thing

[19:43] < MS-> I see

[19:43] < MS-> Have you ever heard of Logo?

[19:43] < Davbo> nope

[19:43] < MS-> no problem

[19:44] < MS-> Stack based languages?

[19:44] < MS-> in the style of forth or postscript?

[19:44] < Davbo> umm no :(

[19:44] < MS-> no problem - just looking for a point of reference really

[19:44] < Davbo> i've heard of Stack based languages

[19:45] < MS-> I was just going to suggest that, in a way, open GL is a bit like that.

[19:45] < MS-> Essentially open GL has a concept of "the current model transform"

[19:45] < MS-> which is a combination of this:

[19:45] < MS-> [translate]*[scale]*[rotate]*[transform]*[scale]

[19:46] < MS-> which since they're internally modelled as matrices boils down to a single matrix

[19:46] < Davbo> Ah right

[19:46] < MS-> When you add a new transform (with a "begin"), it extends that transform

[19:46] < Davbo> I wonder if MATLAB can do such things

[19:46] < MS-> [translate]*[scale]*[rotate]*[transform]*[scale]*[.....]

[19:46] < Davbo> sounds similar

[19:46] < MS-> and when it "ends" it pops one

[19:47] < MS-> yep, matlab will do that sort of thing (I've not used matlab)

[19:47] < Davbo> it's horrible.

[19:47] < MS-> So in opengl you end up defining everything in terms of local co-ordinate systems, and then let it handle transformation into the 3D space

[19:47] < MS-> which is fairly friendly

[19:48] < Davbo> oh okay

[19:48] < MS-> as long as you know what's going on :-)

[19:48] < Davbo> Maybe a look at an old version of the Red Book?

[19:48] < Davbo> or is that too advanced you think?

[19:49] < Davbo> I heard it was the only book you need for Open GL

[19:51] < Davbo> http://openbookproject.net//thinkCSpy/

[19:54] < MS-> The Red Book is fine IMO

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[20:02] < vmlemon__> Hi

[20:04] < Davbo> Hi vmlemon__ and bye! i'm off to do the pub quiz

[20:04] < Davbo> bye all

[22:35] *** vmlemon__ is now known as vmlemon_

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[23:55] < vmlemon_> Hi